Trial Transcripts


August 21, 1979

Diana Purkiss

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MR. SEGAL:  We call Ms. Diana Purkiss, please.

(Whereupon, DIANA PURKISS was called as a witness, duly sworn, and testified as follows:)


D I R E C T  E X A M I N A T I O N  9:52 a.m.

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q  Ms. Purkiss, where do you reside?
A  In Devon, Pennsylvania.
Q  And how long have you lived in Devon?
A  Ten years.
Q  And what does your husband do, Ms. Purkiss?
A  He is a stockbroker.
Q  In Philadelphia?
A  Outside Philadelphia.
Q  Did you ever know Jeffrey and Colette MacDonald?
A  Yes.
Q  When did you first meet Jeffrey and Colette MacDonald?
A  In about September of 1963.
Q  Will you tell us -- tell the members of the jury actually, please -- under what circumstances -- how you came to meet them and know them?
A  My husband was a student at Princeton, as was Dr. MacDonald a student there, and we were married undergraduates.  There were not very many married undergraduates at that time, and the MacDonalds lived two or three doors down the street from us.
Q  How soon or how early in September of 1963 did you meet him and where did you meet him?
A  I would say fairly -- I can't recall exactly -- but I would say fairly near the beginning of the academic year, and I do recall that during that month we had a party for the married undergraduates to kind of get together and meet one another.
Q  After that party did you and Colette MacDonald, and you and your husband and Jeffrey MacDonald, have a relationship, a friendship of some sort?
A  Yes, we did.
Q  How would you describe the nature of your relationship?
A  Well, I was a friend of Colette's, and as couples we were also -- saw each other.  I saw Colette frequently, perhaps as much as on a daily basis.
Q  Did you go out socially together, the four of you?
A  Yes, we did.
Q  How often would you say you would see each other socially?
A  Oh, gosh, I would say weekly.
Q  Now, what were the things that, for instance, you and Mrs. MacDonald would discuss?  What were the things that would go on between you that established the relationship that you described existed?
A  Well, I guess one of the things that we would spend time talking about was how to stretch the dollar.  We were all pressed financially and -- as undergraduates -- and no real income, and we would spend time discussing managing our households.  And I had babies -- and discussing babies, and really what most everyone -- young married women -- talk about.
Q  Did you know how the MacDonalds were making their ends meet at that time, how they were supporting themselves?
A  I do know that they rented a home as did we, and it was a three-storey home; and on the third floor they rented out rooms to girls who were coming to Princeton on weekends.  At that time Princeton was not co-ed; and a place to stay was always a major issue for a young woman coming to Princeton for the weekend.  So the MacDonalds would rent out rooms on the third floor to earn money.
Q  And who took care of that boarding arrangement?  Was that Mrs. MacDonald alone?  Was Dr. MacDonald involved, or do you know anything about that?
A  No.  It would be both of them.  It would, you know, involve keeping those rooms clean and getting the linens changed and that kind of the thing; and they both participated in that.
Q  What was Jeffrey MacDonald's attitude toward boarding and handling, you know, bedroom make-up and things like that?

MR. ANDERSON:  OBJECTION.

THE COURT:  SUSTAINED.

MR. SEGAL:  Your Honor, we are trying to show an attitude between two people as to whether they cooperated, whether they accepted such matters.  I cannot understand why we should not, by a person who knew these two human beings together, be allowed to develop some basic human facts that a jury may know what this is about, or what these people are about.

THE COURT:  I will let you ask the witness questions.  I assume that you are trying to establish character traits.  If you desire to do that, ask questions designed to elicit that testimony if you can.  The objection to the question last asked was sustained.

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q  During that period of time when the MacDonalds were taking in boarders, do you know what Dr. MacDonald's attitude was toward doing housework and homework and cooperating with his wife in that regard?

MR. ANDERSON:  OBJECTION.

THE COURT:  I will SUSTAIN it as to the form of that question.

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q  Do you know whether Dr. MacDonald shared with his wife, in other words, the responsibility for the maintenance of their house?
A  Yes, he did.
Q  Do you know what his attitude was toward such responsibilities?
A  That it was a together kind of operation, that, you know, that -- I would say he had absolutely no qualms about helping her in any way; and certainly in terms of the rooms that they rented.  I mean that was an -- in a small way an economic venture that they both participated in.
Q  Did you have occasion to see how Colette and Jeff MacDonald dealt with any frustrating situations?
A  Yes.
Q  Can you give us an example and tell us how they dealt?

MR. ANDERSON:  OBJECTION.

THE COURT:  OVERRULED.

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q  Yes, please, Ms. Purkiss, go ahead.
A  They -- this house that they rented, as I said before, was a large house, and they shared it with another couple for monetary reasons and -- for both couples.  Housing was very difficult to come by for undergraduates in Princeton at that time.  So they shared this house, and I would say it was difficult at best as the fall -- as we got into the academic year.  It was -- just trying to live daily with another couple became tedious, and working out the kitchen arrangements and who was going to do the cooking, and they tried to that jointly for a while.  And I would say that both Colette and Jeff met that -- what I would have been just beside myself with some of the situations -- I would say they met it with a lot of calmness and a great sense of humor.
Q  Did Mrs. MacDonald have a child at the time that you knew her?
A  Not -- no; the baby was born at the end of the school year.
Q  What was her attitude toward becoming a mother?

MR. BLACKBURN:  OBJECTION.

THE COURT:  SUSTAINED.

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q  Durinq the year at Princeton, did you ever have occasion to see Jeff and Colette have an argument about any matter, large or small; and if they did, describe how they handled it?
A  I really cannot recall any argument.  I mean I am sure there must have been some.  I would say that the kitchen and cooking arrangement with another couple, as I think any of us can imagine, were difficult; but I never saw Jeff and Colette argue over that situation or -- you know -- I don't recall that I ever did.
Q  What was Colette MacDonald's attitude toward her husband?

MR. BLACKBURN:  OBJECTION.

MR. SEGAL:  May I be heard, Your Honor, if necessary, on this matter?

THE COURT:  Yes, you will hear me OVERRULE.

MR. SEGAL:  I'm sorry; I could not hear Your Honor.

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q  Yes, Ms. Purkiss, will you please tell us?
A  Will you repeat the question?
Q  Certainly.  What was Colette MacDonald's attitude toward her husband?
A  Very loving.  They were newlyweds.  They were young people very much in love.
Q  What was Jeff MacDonald's attitude toward Colette?
A  I would say identical in terms of loving.  I would say he was extremely helpful; and I would say an overriding thought would be consideration for her.  I always thought he treated her with the greatest of consideration.
Q  Did you ever see him at that time either strike or beat or hit her?
A  Never.
Q  Did you see her strike or hit him?
A  No.
Q  Did you ever see Jeff MacDonald strike or hit any woman or child?
A  I never saw him strike or hit anything.
Q  When did you and your husband leave Princeton?
A  My husband graduated in June of 1964, and at that point we -- during that summer -- we moved and bought a house outside of Princeton, about seven miles away.
Q  And where did Colette and Jeff MacDonald go at that time?
A  Well, they left their house on Bank Street in Princeton, and I can't really recall.  I think they went to Long Island for the summer before he went to medical school; but I don't recall where they spent the summer exactly.
Q  Did you have occasion to visit Colette and Jeff after both couples left the University?
A  Yes, we did; we spent a weekend with Jeff's family on Long Island.
Q  Was it that summer after school ended?
A  Yes.
Q  The four of you were there together?
A  And my oldest child; we all went out.
Q  What was Jeff's attitude toward your child, if anything?  Did he have any contact with your child?
A  Oh, yes; my son adored him, and he was only three at the time.  But he can tell you incidents today.  He remembers him with a lot of fondness.
Q  During that weekend in that summer, was there any change in the attitude between the MacDonalds -- how they related to each other and how they felt toward each other?
A  No; there was not.
Q  After that summer, when was the next time you had any contact with Jeff and Colette MacDonald?
A  I can't tell you a time.  I don't recall.  The MacDonalds moved to Chicago at that point.  They did spend at least one weekend with us, visiting our family, and we did see them on at least one occasion for dinner, socially, when they had moved to North Jersey.
Q  Let's date back to the time when they lived in Chicago.  Was that when Jeff was attending Northwestern Medical School?
A  Yes; it was.
Q  You say they visited you and your husband?
A  Yes.
Q  How long were they with you?
A  For a weekend.
Q  How much time had elapsed between that summer together -- the summer weekend in Long Island -- and the next time you were together with both of them as a couple?
A  They brought Kimberly with them, and I think she was about two; so I think it is about a two-year time span.
Q  What, if anything, did you observe had changed about the MacDonalds, particularly in their relationship -- perhaps with each other or how they treated other people when you had this pext contact with both of them together?
A  I would say their relationship with one another had not changed at all.  At this time, I observed them with a two-year-old, which I really had not seen them for any period of time with their daughter.  I would say their relationship had not changed and they were both exceedingly thrilled with this little girl.
Q  Between that two-year period of time, had you had any other contact with the MacDonalds?  I know you had not seen them, you said, but were you in contact in any other way?
A  Yes; letters and telephone calls.
Q  Was there correspondence between you and Colette MacDonald?
A  Yes.
Q  Was there anything in that correspondence or in those communications that you had that indicated that Colette MacDonald had changed in her feelings or attitudes toward her husband?
A  None whatsoever.
Q  What sort of attitude did she convey in those letters in that two-year period you were communicating with her?
A  I had no reason at all to think they weren't the same loving couple.  In fact, I know they were.  Again, my time frame is not -- you know, I don't recall the time frame exactly.  But during this period -- at some point during this period when they lived in Chicago -- Colette was pregnant and we had discussed the fact that the obstetrician she was using had been a professor of Jeff's and, in fact, had delivered my oldest son when we lived in Chicago.  That was kind of a coincidence -- in fact, probably quite a coincidence.  And so we spent some time discussing that.
Q  What was Colette's attitude as you learned it toward her second pregnancy?
A  As far as I know, the same as most every young mother -- you know, excited about having another baby.
Q  Did she express any special fears of difficulty in childbirth or thought she might have a difficult delivery of some sort?

MR. BLACKBURN:  Your Honor, we would OBJECT to this.

THE COURT:  SUSTAINED.

MR. SEGAL:  I will make an offer, if Your Honor pleases, as to why this is relevant.  There is direct evidence by the Government on this point.

THE COURT:  Ask your question.

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q  Did Mrs. MacDonald express any concerns about her pregnancy or delivery with her second child?

MR. ANDERSON:  OBJECTION.

THE WITNESS:  No; she did not.

THE COURT:  OVERRULED.

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q  Your answer is?
A  She did not express any concern or fear.
Q  Did you have any contact with Colette after Kristen was born -- the second child?
A  Yes; we continued to write one another and to telephone occasionally.
Q  And in those conversations, were you talking with Colette?
A  Yes.
Q  After Kristen was born, did she indicate concern for her health as a result of the delivery and the pregnancy that she had?
A  No; she did not.
Q  When was the last time that you were together with Colette and Jeffrey MacDonald as a couple?
A  It was probably a dinner -- you know, going out.  We met them in New York, and I think that was probably the last time we ever saw one another.
Q  At that time, was Dr. MacDonald a resident -- or an intern, rather -- at Columbia Presbyterian Hospital?
A  Yes; he was.
Q  They were living in northern New Jersey?
A  Yes.
Q  Where were you and your husband living?
A  I think at that time we were still living in Kendall Park, New Jersey.
Q  Tell us about that last meeting and what you observed about the attitude of Colette toward Jeff and Jeff toward Colette?
A  That was totally unchanged, and that is what was fun about it -- that they were still the same loving couple and the same fun people with a lot of concern for one another.
Q  Did you ever have occasion to see Colette and Jeff in terms of -- do something to indicate how they had raised their children -- what they were doing toward child-raising and how they handled discipline or order with their children?
A  Yeah, I recall one incident where it was the weekend that Jeff and Colette and Kimberly had come to stay with us at our home in New Jersey.  We were also entertaining other mutual friends from Princeton, and we fed our children first -- my children and Kimberly.  I cooked hamburgers for the children, and Colette said to me, "Cook hers really rare, or she doesn't like it."  And we did that, and Kimberly was very happy with what she got.
Q  Was there an accident at some time involving Kimberly -- something happen?  I mean, did you have occasion to see Kimberly do something in the house?  Perhaps I am mistaken about that?
A  No.

MR. SEGAL:  That is my fault.

MR. ANDERSON:  I OBJECT, Your Honor.

MR. SEGAL:  All right; I don't apologize to you.

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q  Let me, ask you this, Ms. Purkiss --

THE COURT:  (Interposing)  I will OVERRULE the objection and let Counsel withdraw his inadvertence.

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q  Ms. Purkiss, based upon the various observations, the period of time that you saw Jeff and Colette MacDonald and knew them or contacted them -- based on all those, what is your opinion as to Jeff's character as to peacefulness and non-violence?
A  Well, I am not a great believer in people changing a whole lot.  I think the basic --

MR. ANDERSON:  (Interposing)  OBJECT to the answer , Your Honor.

THE COURT:  Answer his question, please, ma'am.  Then you will be afforded an opportunity to explain your answer and elaborate on it, perhaps.  But just answer the question to begin with.

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q  Let me put the question to you again?
A  Okay.
Q  If you can tell us how you would evaluate -- that is, what is the bottom line first, and then you may explain?  The question I want to put to you, Ms. Purkiss, is based upon your observations and contacts with Jeff and Jeff and Colette together and with the children, what is your opinion of his character as to the quality of peacefulness and non-violence?
A  I think he was an exceedingly non-violent person.  I think he treated his wife and children with more gentleness than I have observed most fathers treating their children.  I think he was concerned, loving, and I don't believe that those characteristics change.
Q  Based upon your contacts and knowledge of Jeff MacDonald over the period of time, what is your opinion as to his truthfulness?
A  I would have not any reason whatsoever to doubt his truthfulness.

MR. SEGAL:  I have no further questions of you at this time, Ms. Purkiss.  The Government may have.  You may cross-examine.


C R O S S - E X A M I N A T I O N  10:09 a.m.

BY MR. BLACKBURN:
Q  Ms. Purkiss, I think you stated on direct examination that you first met the MacDonalds in September of 1963; is that correct?
A  Yes.
Q  You knew them in the summer of 1964, when they went to Long Island; is that correct -- in the summer?
A  Well, we have known them from September, 1963, on.
Q  Right; I think you described them this morning as -- their attitude toward each other as a "loving couple"; is that correct?
A  Uh-huh.
Q  That Dr. MacDonald's attitude toward his wife was one of gentleness and love and concern; is that what you said?
A  Consideration was, I think, the word.
Q  Consideration.  Ms. Purkiss, did you know that in the summer of 1964 this individual whom you describe -- Dr. MacDonald -- had sexual relations with a woman not his wife?
A  I knew it after I read it in the newspaper last week or two weeks ago.  I didn't know it until that time.
Q  You described his -- your opinion of him as one of peacefulness toward his family, one of gentleness and concern; is that correct?
A  Yes.
Q  Did you know that in July of 1969 Dr. MacDonald had sexual relations with a woman not his wife?
A  When I read it in the newspaper if that was accurate.
Q  Did you know that in December of 1969 he had sexual contact with a woman not his wife?

MR. SEGAL:  Your Honor, I would suggest the Government put the question in the proper frame.  There's no proof of that in evidence.  If they want to ask whether such a fact has been established by anybody --

THE COURT:  (Interposing)  Do you object to the question?

MR. SEGAL:  In its form; yes, Your Honor.

THE COURT:  Very well, just say that.

MR. SEGAL:  All right, Your Honor.

THE COURT:  I will let you rephrase the question.

BY MR. BLACKBURN:
Q  Did you know that Dr. MacDonald has admitted under oath in the Article 32 proceedings that in December of 1969 he had sexual contact with a girl in Texas not his wife?
A  I only know that via the newspaper.

MR. BLACKBURN:  Just a moment, Your Honor.

(Pause.)

BY MR. BLACKBURN:
Q  Ms. Purkiss, are you aware that between the 17th of February, 1970, and the 6th of April, 1970, when this Defendant was first lengthily interviewed concerning the murders at his home that he had sexual relations with an individual?

MR. SEGAL:  Again, Your Honor, in the absence of any proof of such a statement, I would suggest that the question is again improper.

THE COURT:  I'll SUSTAIN that one.

BY MR. BLACKBURN:
Q  Ms. Purkiss --

THE COURT:  (Interposing)  As to the form.

BY MR. BLACKBURN:
Q  -- in your opinion, do you believe that sexual contact or relations with persons other than your spouse are consistent with consideration towards that spouse?
A  It would depend entirely on circumstances I would have to say.
Q  Now, when was the last time you had talked with Colette MacDonald?
A  I don't recall the last communication.
Q  Well, let me rephrase it.  What was the last year, I suppose, that you talked to her --
A  (Interposing)  That I saw her or --
Q  -- saw or talked with her or had any form of communication?
A  Wrote -- any form of communication.  It would have been at Christmastime of 1969.
Q  Where were you living in February of 1970?
A  In Devon, Pennsylvania.
Q  Pennsylvania.  You do not have any personal firsthand knowledge of what went on in the MacDonald house the night of the 17th of February, 1970; do you?
A  No; I do not.
Q  You have not listened to any of the evidence in this case, I take it.
A  I've read the newspapers.
Q  But you haven't been in court and listened?
A  No; I have not.

MR. SEGAL:  Your Honor, that's an unfair question.  The Government has invoked the rule also to exclude such witnesses.  To ask whether she has been here when the motion is to exclude them is to suggest something is wrong with the witness' testimony that is not so.

THE COURT:  Let me say, members of the jury, in explanation of that, that under the Federal Rules of Evidence under which we are trying to try this case, either side has a right to move the Court that witnesses be excluded from the courtroom until their testimony has been called for, elicited, and we are through with them.  At a pretrial conference in this case, prior to your ever coming here, that rule was invoked and for that reason, with certain exceptions to which Counsel agreed which do not apply to this witness, all the witnesses whom you have heard have been housed or quartered somewhere else and have been brought in one by one.  Isn't that correct?

MR. SEGAL:  Yes, Your Honor.

THE COURT:  All right.

MR. SEGAL:  That reflects the situation.

THE COURT:  Very well.

MR. BLACKBURN:  No further questions.

THE COURT:  I might just add this and you, of course, will draw no inference of any kind whatever from the fact that the witnesses were so excluded.  Go ahead.


R E D I R E C T  E X A M I N A T I O N

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q  Very briefly, Ms. Purkiss, on the allegation which Government counsel has asked you about concerning alleged relations and contacts that Dr. MacDonald had with any other woman than his wife, assuming for a moment that that was proven through evidence of that fact, does that change your mind in any way and your opinion in any way as to whether Dr. MacDonald was a peaceful, non-violent person toward his wife Colette?
A  No; it does not.
Q  Does that in any way affect your opinion as to whether he was a peaceful and non-violent person toward his children, Kimberly and Kristen?
A  No; it does not.
Q  In your mind, is there any logical connection between those matters, if they were even proven, and the character qualities you have testified about?

MR. MURTAGH:  OBJECTION.

THE COURT:  SUSTAINED.

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q  Does any of that that has been told to you affect your opinion in any way as to whether Dr. MacDonald is a truthful person?
A  No; it does not.  I believe he is truthful.

MR. SEGAL:  I have nothing further of this witness at this time, Your Honor.

THE COURT:  Call your next.

MR. SEGAL:  Ms. Purkiss, you may step down.  Before we hear the next witness, may we see Your Honor at the Bench, please?

THE COURT:  Yes.

(Witness excused.)