Trial Transcripts
August 2, 1979
Janice Glisson (CID)
Scans of original transcript
MR. MURTAGH: Your Honor, the Government would call next Mrs. Janice Glisson; but it would ask the Court's indulgence for perhaps a minute or two to mount some of these acetate sheets.
THE COURT: All right; you can have two minutes.
(Pause.)
MR. MURTAGH: Your Honor, in the interest of not wasting any more of the Court and jury's time, I think I can proceed with about four of these charts. Mrs. Glisson's testimony would be quite lengthy, I think.
THE COURT: If that was your idea of a minute, we certainly are glad you didn't need five.
(Whereupon, JANICE S. GLISSON was called as a witness, duly sworn, and testified as follows:)
D I R E C T E X A M I N A T I O N 12:38 p.m.
MR. MURTAGH:
Q Please state your name, ma'am, and spell it for the reporter?
A Janice S. Glisson; J-a-n-i-c-e; S, period; G-l-i-s-s-o-n.
Q Ms. Glisson, where are you employed?
A At the United States Criminal Investigation Laboratories located at Fort Gordon, Georgia.
Q And in what capacity are you employed there?
A As a forensic chemist.
Q And what position, if any, do you hold in the Laboratory?
A I am the Chief of the Serology Section.
Q Let me ask you -- what is the principal responsibility of the Serology Section at the Laboratory?
A The Serology Section accepts evidence dealing with physiological fluids and also in that Section, we remove trace elements. We also do the examination for hairs.
Q Ms. Glisson, the CID Laboratory at Fort Gordon -- if you know -- is responsible for what geographic area?
A The Continental United States.
Q Is that just cases submitted by the Army?
A No, sir; we do all the Army cases, and we also do some of the Marines, and some of the Navy, and some of the Air Force cases.
Q Now, how long have you had your position as Chief of the Serology Section?
A Well, I just became Chief. We just broke away from the Chemistry Section and made it a new Section in May. Previous to that, the Chemistry Section was divided into drugs and marijuana examinations, and trace evidence and serology. And I was a Branch Leader of the Serology Section for about two years, I guess -- two or three years.
Q Now, as a branch leader, on the average, approximately how many forensic chemists would you supervise?
A In the serology section, six serologists right now.
Q In addition to supervising the chemists, would you actually perform tests?
A Yes, sir.
Q Let me ask you: what is your undergraduate education, please?
A I received a Bachelor of Arts Degree from Skidmore College.
Q Could you tell us, please, where Skidmore College is?
A It is in Saratoga Springs, New York.
Q If I might ask, when did you graduate?
A I was in the Class of '46, but I graduated in 1945.
Q What was your major, please?
A I majored in chemistry.
Q And your minor?
A Biology.
Q Now, after you graduated, where were you next employed?
A I went to New York City and I worked with the Columbia Presbyterian Medical Center.
Q Columbia Presbyterian?
A Yes, sir.
Q In what capacity were you employed at Columbia Presbyterian?
A As a chemist in the Surgical Chemistry Laboratory.
Q What were your duties, please?
A I did blood chemistries and also spinal fluid chemistries. I also did work on pancreatic enzymes. They were developing the pancreatic function test and I did that work. I also did work on an enzyme called lysozyne.
Q Did you do any research?
A Yes, sir.
Q What was the nature of that research?
A I worked in conjunction with the doctors there and I did research on lysozyne and also the determination of the pancreatic enzymes, related to carcinomas and other diseases.
Q Mrs. Glisson, for the benefit of Government counsel and someone else, would you please define that last term that you used?
A Carcinomas?
Q Yes, please.
A Cancer.
Q It was the term before that.
A Pancreatic enzymes?
Q Yeah. Okay, now, when did you leave Columbia Presbyterian?
A I left Columbia Presbyterian in 1948.
Q Where were you next employed?
A I moved to Augusta, Georgia, and I worked at Oliver General Army Hospital.
Q Is that located at Fort Gordon?
A No, sir. This is located in Augusta.
Q In Augusta, I see. What was your period of employment there?
A I worked at Oliver General for about two years when the Army closed -- the Army Hospital closed.
Q What were your duties prior to the Army closing the hospital?
A At Army General Hospital, I worked in the Clinical Laboratory where the technologists rotated between the different sections in the urinalysis, hematology, blood bank, and chemistry. I ended up working in exfoliative cytology. It was about that time that we started doing Papanicolaou smears. That is when we started that at the hospital.
Q Where were you next employed?
A I went to the VA Hospital in Augusta, Georgia.
Q What were your duties there?
A They were essentially the same as at Oliver General Hospital.
Q Now, did there come a time when you were employed at an Army Hospital located on Fort Gordon?
A Yes, sir.
Q When was that, please?
A I went to work at Fort Gordon on the reservation at the Clinical Laboratory in 1950.
Q Let me ask you: do you have any children?
A Yes, sir.
Q When were they born, please?
A They were born between '55, '57, and '58.
Q Did that interrupt your career?
A Yes, sir.
Q I take it that you eventually resumed your work after your children were of school age or so?
A Yes, sir.
Q Where was that, please?
A I worked at a hospital in Augusta, Georgia, St. Joseph's Hospital. It is a Catholic hospital. I worked in the Clinical Laboratory and I worked part-time and rotated between the different sections where they needed help which included the blood bank and hematology and chemistry.
Q Directing your attention to the period commencing in April of 1963, and up until April of 1967, where, if any place, were you employed?
A Okay, I worked part-time at the Medical College of Georgia, at Talmadge Hospital, specifically in the Division of Hematology.
Q Would you please tell us what hematology is in non-clinical terms?
A Hematology -- how I characterize it is a study of blood cells. In the Division of Hematology where I worked, we were studying blood dysplasias. They had had a grant. They were studying chemotherapy in relation to leukemia and those diseases.
Q Directing your attention to April of 1967, to the present time, where have you been employed?
A At the Criminal Investigation Laboratory.
Q You told us now that you are Chief of the Serology Section, but in what capacity were you employed when you first came there?
A Well, I first came -- they had to hire me as a physical scientist because I did not have enough math. I didn't have analytical and differential calculus so I went back to Augusta College and got the credits and then I could get on the Civil Service Roster and be in chemistry and engineering, but it was essentially chemistry.
Q So, once you were on the books so to speak, did you receive any training at the Laboratory?
A Yes, sir.
Q Would you describe, please, what the nature of that training was?
A The Criminal Investigation Laboratory has a training program whereby persons are trained in marijuana identification and drugs and serology and trace evidence. I went through the marijuana examinations and I did a little bit of drug work. Then, I just went into the serology section because I was more adapted to serology.
Q Would it be more accurate to say that virtually from the time you left college in 1945, and except for a time when you were taking care of your children, you were employed almost continuously as a serologist in a clinical setting?
A Yes, sir.
Q Now, once you were in the Laboratory, approximately how many cases have you worked that involved typing of dried blood stains or the analysis of blood stains?
A I have worked thousands of cases.
Q Directing your attention to February 17th, 1970, approximately how many cases?
A That would be about two and a half years. It is hard for me to tell, but we probably did about three or four cases a week at that time.
Q Have you ever been qualified as an expert to testify in the field of identification of questioned blood stains and the identification of blood groups in any Court deriving its authority from the United States?
A Yes, sir.
Q Approximately how many times have you been so qualified?
A I have been qualified -- I guess I have testified about 150 times.
Q Are most of these military courts?
A Yes, sir.
Q Is it exclusively military courts?
A No, sir.
Q Let me ask you this: does the CID Laboratory only testify or examine evidence for the Government in cases?
A Do you mean for the prosecution?
Q Yes, sir. Are they available to the defense if you know?
A Yes, sir.
Q They are available to the defense?
A Yes, we are.
Q Have you ever testified for the defense in a case?
A Yes, I have.
Q Do you belong to any professional associations in your work?
A Yes, sir.
Q What associations do you belong to?
A I belong to the Southern Association of Forensic Science. I am a Fellow in the American Academy of Forensic Science.
Q Have you participated in the activities of any committee on either of these associations?
A Yes, sir.
Q Would you describe what that is, please?
A On the Southern Association, I have been on their Constitution Committee. Right now, I am on the Membership Committee where we evaluate the applicants that come into the Southern Association.
Q Are you involved at the present time in the development of any forensic methodologies?
A Yes.
Q Would you tell us what those are, please?
A Well, after we did the ABO groups, we started doing the MN grouping. They came a little bit after the '70's for our Laboratory, and we developed -- we try out the procedures listed in the literature and then we develop our methods from there -- whatever works well after that. We also do the same things for Rh typing and eventually get isoenzymes. We develop those methods, too.
Q Mrs. Glisson, are you familiar and were you familiar in February, 1970, with the typing of dried blood stains in the ABO system using the crust and elution methods?
A Yes, sir.
Q Are those tests, to your knowledge, still in use today?
A Yes, sir.
Q Are they valid methodology?
A Yes, sir.
Q I take it they are not the only means of testing or typing blood stains?
A No; they have modifications, but the Lattes test has stayed the same -- essentially the same way. Some people use a cover slip and some people don't. The absorption-elution has changed a little bit, but it is still the same method.
Q Would it be accurate to say that in the ABO system, those two tests are the means for identifying type in dried blood stains?
A That is right.
Q Now, based on the performance of those tests, are you able to express an opinion with satisfaction to yourself and reasonable degree of scientific certainty as to the type of an ABO blood stain, if any?
A Yes, sir.
Q And you are not, I take it, able to say that that stain comes from a particular individual?
A No.
Q Did you examine questioned blood stains in this case, using the methodology that you have described?
A Yes, sir.
MR. MURTAGH: Your Honor, at this time we would offer Mrs. Glisson as an expert in the field of blood stain identification and typing using the ABO system and methodology that she has described.
THE COURT: Very well.
MR. MURTAGH:
Q Mrs. Glisson, did you have occasion to go to the crime scene at Fort Bragg?
A No, sir.
Q You did not? Okay; if I can ask, when did you first become involved in the processing of evidence in this case?
A On the Monday -- it was a holiday -- it was George Washington's Birthday. And the serologists came in to work on the case.
Q If you know, please, can you tell from whom you received evidence for typing in this case?
A Craig Chamberlain.
Q And in addition to Craig Chamberlain, did you work with any other chemists in this case?
A Yes, sir; I worked with Terry Laber and also Larry Flinn.
Q Had you trained all three of those individuals?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did you supervise them?
A Yes, sir.
Q Mrs. Glisson, I have put up there Government chart, I believe, 639, with an additional acetate sheet bearing the initials "JSG." Let me ask you, with respect to Government Exhibit 306 -- the club about which Mr. Shaw testified to finding outside the rear door of the MacDonald quarters -- did you have occasion to perform any tests on that exhibit?
A Yes, sir.
Q And would you tell us, please, what tests you performed? I think there is a pointer there.
A I performed the absorption-elution examinations on this court exhibit 306 in two different areas.
Q Mrs. Glisson, have you been present in the courtroom during the testimony of the other chemists?
A Yes; I have.
Q Have you heard their testimony with respect to these exhibits?
A Yes.
Q Mrs. Glisson, I believe you pointed to the column on area seven and indicated that you obtained the antigen A; and with respect to area eight, I believe you pointed to the column which reflects A and B; is that correct, ma'am?
A That is right.
Q Okay, now; with respect to area seven, based on the tests that you performed and on the tests which Dr. Chamberlain has testified to, are you able to state an opinion satifactory to yourself?
A Yes, sir.
Q As to what blood group that is?
A Yes, sir.
Q Would you tell us, please?
A It is Type A.
Q And hypothetically, if Colette MacDonald has Type A blood --
A (Interposing) It is the same group as Colette.
Q You cannot say it is Colette's blood, I take it?
A No.
Q Can you eliminate any members of the family?
A Yes, sir; we can eliminate Kimberly, Jeffrey, and Kris.
Q Now, with respect to area eight on the same exhibit, are you able to state an opinion, based on Dr. Chamberlain's results or your own, as to what group?
A Yes, sir; I found both the A and the B blood factors and with no results with the crust test, it is type AB.
Q What type is that?
A It is the same as Kimberly's; Type AB.
Q Kimberly's; and you can eliminate as the source of that particular stain which members of the family?
A Colette, Jeff and Kris.
Q Would it be correct to say that, as to areas seven and eight, you can eliminate Kristen and Jeffrey as possible sources of the blood stains on that exhibit?
A That is right.
Q Now, with respect to Government's Exhibit 313, the "Old Hickory" knife -- which Mr. Shaw found underneath the bush not far from the entrance to the utility room door -- what tests did you perform?
A I did the absorption-elution.
Q And on what portion?
A Excuse me; I did not.
Q You did not? I am sorry; I believe Dr. Chamberlain testified to that.
A That is right.
Q Okay; based on Dr. Chamberlain's results, which are indicated on the chart, are you able to state an opinion as to what blood group that is?
A Yes; sir; that is Type A.
Q Okay; that would be the same type as which member?
A As Colette.
Q Which members can you eliminate?
A I can eliminate Kimberly, Jeffrey and Kristen.
Q Now, I believe with respect to Government Exhibit 312, the ice pick, Dr. Chamberlain did all the tests. Are you able to state an opinion, based on those tests, as to what conclusions, if any, you would draw?
A Okay; with the absence -- the benzidine test was negative -- did not indicate any blood --
Q Okay; you indicated the pick portion, I believe?
A That is right; this part right here.
Q What about the portion under the metal fitting?
A Under the metal fitting, inside -- I know he took the handle off and he found -- he did the benzidine and he got the A. He also did a precipitin test, which shows that it is human. All we could say to that would be human blood. We could not get any blood typing results.
Q Mrs. Glisson, the first thing I would ask you is to speak up a little bit, and also ask you a question with respect to the relationship, if any, between the benzidine test and the precipitin test. Do you know what I mean, ma'am?
A Yes.
Q Could you please tell us what that relationship is?
A Okay; the way we do it in Criminal Investigation Laboratory -- if the benzidine test is positive, then we go further and do a precipitin test to see or to make sure it is human blood.
The precipitin test is a confirmatory test, actually, for the presence of blood or human tissue -- and blood is a tissue. So if I find positive benzidine -- you will notice that we say "indicate blood" -- and if you find a positive benzidine plus a positive precipitin, it is human blood. This is a definite test for human blood.
Q Mrs. Glisson, based on your opinion, is there sometimes a danger of a false positive with the benzidine test?
A Very rarely; I haven't found any. I found one one time.
Q How about a false negative?
A I haven't seen a false negative that I know about.
THE COURT: Are you at a place where you would like for us to go to lunch?
MR. MURTAGH: Your Honor, I am at a place where I would love for us to go to lunch.
THE COURT: All right; members of the jury, I will let you retire now. We will come back today at 2:30. Please don't talk about the case, and remember all those other no-no's and comply, please.
(Jury exits at 1:00 p.m.)
THE COURT: All right; recess the court until 2:30, please.
(The proceeding was recessed at 1:01 p.m., to reconvene at 2:30 p.m., this same day.)
F U R T H E R P R O C E E D I N G S (2:30 P.M.)
(The following proceedings were held in the presence of the jury and alternates.)
THE COURT: Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. Any further questions for this witness?
MR. BLACKBURN: I believe we do.
THE COURT: All right.
(Whereupon, JANICE S. GLISSON, the witness on the stand at the time of recess, resumed the stand and testified further as follows:)
D I R E C T E X A M I N A T I O N (2:31 p.m.) (resumed)
MR. MURTAGH:
Q Mrs. Glisson, let me ask you with respect to Government Exhibit 314, the Hilton bathmat, that was collected from the abdomen of Colette MacDonald, whether you had occasion to perform any tests on that?
A Yes, sir.
Q And what test did you perform, please?
A I performed the absorption-elution test.
Q Okay, and I take it Dr. Chamberlain had done the crust test?
A That's right.
Q What were your results with respect to stain area B?
A Stain area B, I found both the A antigen and the B antigen.
Q And what conclusion did you draw from that?
A That the stain was Type AB.
Q And that would be the same group as?
A Kimberly.
Q Now, let me just ask you to take a look at 314 and see if you can tell us where stain area B is?
A Right here.
Q Would you point that out, please, to the jury?
A It is this long stain, approximately two-and-a-half inches long right here.
Q Mrs. Glisson, what other members of the family can you eliminate, if any, as a possible source?
A I can eliminate Jeffrey, Colette, and Kristen.
Q How about stain area D?
A In stain area D, I found the antigen A and antigen B.
Q Is that basically the same as in area B?
A Yes, sir.
Q How about L?
A In stain area L, I found only the A antigen.
Q Okay, and that would be the same group as?
A As Colette.
Q Let me hand you this and see if you can find stain area L?
THE COURT: You just asked that.
MR. MURTAGH: Sir?
THE COURT: Didn't you just ask about L?
MR. MURTAGH: No, Your Honor, I believe it was B that she had pointed out. It's on the reverse side.
(Pause.)
MR. MURTAGH: I'm sorry, I misunderstood you.
THE COURT: I was just wondering if I was getting a little off -- what the error factor in my court reporting was. I had never missed one before.
MR. MURTAGH: I am sure you haven't, sir. Let me start all over again, if I could, please.
MR. MURTAGH:
Q With respect to stain area L, you performed what test, please?
A I did the absorption-elution.
Q And you found?
A The antigen A.
Q And from that you conclude?
A This is Type A.
Q It is the same group as?
A As Colette.
Q And you can eliminate?
A I can eliminate Kimberly and Jeffrey and Kris.
Q And do you see stain area L on there?
A This is the area here.
Q Okay, Mrs. Glisson, let me hand you Government Exhibit 101, the Defendant's pajama top which was recovered from the chest area of Colette MacDonald, and ask if you had occasion to test that?
A Yes, sir.
Q Let me see if I can speed this up. What tests did you perform?
A I did both the crust test and the absorption-elution test.
Q With respect to the crust test for area 1, what was your result?
A I found anti B.
Q And did you do the elution test?
A Yes, sir.
Q What was your conclusion?
A I indicated A.
Q Now, when you say "indicated," will you please explain to the court and jury what you mean by that?
A Since I checked so many areas, I only did the crust test myself, because the absorption-elution test is a very tedious test to do; and with a fresh stain like this -- it was less than a couple of weeks old -- I just went through the crust test on many of the areas, and just finding anti B -- that is consistent with Type A.
However, I really don't have a check on myself since I didn't do the antibodies, and so I still call it "indicated A," but it is most likely A.
Q Based on the results that you did get, can you eliminate any members of the family as a source of that stain?
A Yes, I can eliminate Kimberly and Jeff.
Q As a source of that stain?
A That's right.
Q How about area 2?
A Area 2, I got no antibodies, no reaction from when I did the crust test. I found no agglutination. However, when I did absorption-elution, I found the blood factors A and B; and this tells me that the blood is Type AB.
Q That would be the same group as?
A As Kimberly.
Q And you can eliminate?
A I can eliminate Colette, Jeff and Kris.
Q Mrs. Glisson, can you point out either on the photograph or on the garment itself where that area is, please?
A The area I got AB was down here on the left front.
Q Are you referring to the front side of the garment?
A Yes, sir, it was on the left front.
Q I'm sorry?
A Yes, sir.
Q All right, how about areas 3 through 15, did you perform the crust test?
A Yes, sir.
Q And what did you get?
A I found anti B.
Q And with respect to 3 through 7, what conclusion did you draw from that?
A I concluded that was indication of Type A.
Q And that would be consistent with?.
A Colette.
Q And you could eliminate?
A Kimberly and Jeff.
Q How about stain number 8?
A Stain number 8 I did both the crust test and the absorption-elution.
Q And what were your results?
A My result was it was Type A.
Q Okay, and that would be the same group as?
A As Colette.
Q And you could eliminate?
A Kimberly, Jeffrey, and Kristen.
Q How about stains 9 and 10?
A 9 and 10 I only did the crust test, which indicates Type A.
Q And that is consistent with?
A With Colette, and eliminates Kimberly and Jeff.
Q Okay, how about area 11?
A Area 11, I did both the crust test and absorption-elution, resulting in Type A, same group as Colette.
Q And you can eliminate?
A Kim, Jeffrey and Kristen.
Q How about areas 12 through 15?
A I did only the crust test.
Q With the result?
A Indicates Type A.
Q And that is consistent?
A It is consistent with Colette and it would eliminate Jeffrey and Kimberly.
Q How about area 16?
A Area 16 -- I did the crust test and also absorption-elution and I found anti A showing Type B and I also found antigen B which tells me that it's Type B.
Q Is that your conclusion?
A Yes, sir.
Q That would be the same group as?
A Jeffrey.
Q And you can eliminate?
A Colette, Kimberly, and Kristen.
Q Would you please point out either on the photograph or on the garment where area 16 was, please?
A Area 16 was on the left sleeve and the front part.
Q On the front part of the garment?
A Yes, sir.
Q How about stains 17 through 23?
A I did only the crust test and I was still finding anti B which indicates Type A.
Q And that is consistent?
A Consistent with Colette, and it would not be Kimberly's or Jeffrey's blood.
Q Now, Dr. Chamberlain, I believe, testified to the results on stain 24R and, based on his testimony, what would your conclusion be?
A He did only the crust test which would indicate A.
Q And that would be?
A Consistent with Colette.
Q And would eliminate?
A Kimberly and Jeffrey.
Q How about stains 25R and 26R?
A He did both the crust test and the absorption-elution and found results to show that it was Type A.
Q And that would be the same group as?
A The same group as Colette and that would eliminate the other three -- Kimberly, Jeffrey, and Kristen.
Q And 27R?
A He only did the crust test and found anti B which would indicate A, consistent with Colette's.
Q Mrs. Glisson, to sum that up, would it be accurate to say that you found how many blood groups on that garment?
A I found three blood groups -- AB, A, and B.
Q And do you have an opinion satisfactory to yourself as to what the predominant blood group, if any, is on that garment?
A Yes, sir.
Q What is it?
A It is Type A.
Q Type A?
A (Witness nods affirmatively.)
MR. MURTAGH: Your Honor, at this time, the Government would offer chart 640 as it now is.
THE COURT: Very well.
(Government Exhibit No. 640 was received in evidence.)
MR. MURTAGH:
Q Mrs. Gliisson, let me show you Government Exhibit 641. Now, with respect to Government Exhibit 270, the pajama top of Colette MacDonald, did you have occasion to perform some tests on that?
A Yes, sir.
Q Okay, let me ask you first, with respect to areas 1R through 4R, which Dr. Chamberlain testified to the results, what conclusions do you draw with respect to each stain?
A Well, in areas 1R, 2R, and 4R, he did both the crust test and absorption-elution, and he came out with Type A which is the same group as Colette and eliminates the other three people -- Jeffrey, Kristen, and Kimberly. on one of the areas he just did the crust test which also indicates Type A.
Q Okay, now, with respect to areas 1 through 4, did you test those?
A Yes, sir.
Q And what did you get?
A I just did the crust test. I found anti B which shows me it is consistent with Type A.
Q Okay, and your conclusion there would be that it is consistent with which member?
A With Colette.
Q Okay, and you can eliminate?
A Kimberly and Jeffrey.
Q All right, now, how about the pajama bottoms, Government 271, with respect to those areas Dr. Chamberlain examined?
A In six areas he did the crust test and got the indication for Type A which would be the same as Colette's blood. In one area he did both the crust test and absorption-elution and he came out with results that show it as Type A, the same as Colette's blood.
Q Okay, and what areas did you personally test?
A I tested 14 areas on the pajama bottoms. In every area that I checked I found in the crust test to show anti B which is consistent with A. So, then I just took some of the samples and did the absorption-elution and I found antigen A.
Q And you would conclude from that?
A That the blood type was consistent with Colette's blood.
Q Let's see. How about area 14?
A Area 14 -- 1 did both the crust test and the absorption-elution and I recorded that it was Type A, the same type as Colette's.
MR. MURTAGH: The Government would offer 641 in evidence.
THE COURT: Very well.
(Government Exhibit No. 641 was received in evidence.)
MR. MURTAGH:
Q Mrs. Glisson, I show you Government Exhibit 642 and ask you with respect to Government Exhibit 125 on that chart which, I believe, has been identified as CID number D-23(a). Did you have occasion to test that?
A Yes, sir.
Q And what did you get?
A I did the absorption-elution and found the antigen A. I may say antigen or blood specific factor. They mean the same as far as blood typing goes, and I found A and my conclusion was it was Type A, the same as Colette's blood.
MR. MURTAGH: Your Honor, at this time, we would mark Government Exhibit 439(a), an enlargement of a photograph that was introduced into evidence yesterday which reflects the splinter D-23(a).
(Government Exhibit No. 439(a) was marked for identification.)
MR. MURTAGH:
Q Mrs. Glisson, I would ask you just for a second, is that the splinter which you just have testified about?
A I got a gauze that I think that Craig Chamberlain had wiped off, so I am not sure.
Q I see. With respect to D-23(b) -- let me ask you with respect to the splinter D-23(a). I believe you testified that you found the antigen A and from that you concluded that it was Type A blood.
A That's right.
Q Who can you eliminate?
A I can eliminate Kimberly, Jeffrey, and Kristen.
Q Okay, and with the other areas?
A The other areas, just the crust test was done. This would just be an indication for A.
Q And that would be consistent with --
A (Interposing) With Colette's blood.
Q Okay, and you can eliminate --
A (Interposing) Kimberly and Jeffrey.
Q Okay, how about the other splinter, D-23(b)?
A I did absorption-elution on this blood, and I found the blood specific factor A, and I concluded that the blood was Type A, which is the same as Colette's blood.
Q And, again, you can eliminate --
A (Interposing) Can eliminate Kimberly, Jeffrey, and Kristen.
MR. MURTAGH: Your Honor, the Government offers 642.
(Government Exhibit 642 was received in evidence.)
MR. MURTAGH:
Q Mrs. Glisson, let me show you 643 with an additional acetate here. Now, can you please tell us -- can you see that properly?
A Yes.
Q Now, with respect to Government Exhibit 322 and its corresponding vial, 323, can you tell us, please, what tests, if any, you did and what the results are?
A I did the absorption-elution test and I found antigen A, and that, along with the crust test of anti B shows me that the type was A, the same as Colette's blood.
Q That exhibit which I think the jury is probably having trouble seeing on the chart is the multi-colored throw rug from the master bedroom; is that correct?
A That is right. I checked area one.
Q Now, how about Government Exhibit 102 -- I am sorry -- Mr. Laber has testified to that.
A That is right.
Q How about 115?
A I can only make the conclusion on that exhibit.
Q Okay, and that refers to the scrapings from the "Geneva Forge" knife, I believe?
A That is right.
Q Okay, what would your conclusion be based on those tests?
A With weak indications like that, we would say indicate A.
Q How about Government 113, a stain from the south radiator in the master bedroom?
A I did the absorption-elution and found A, which tells me the blood is Type A, the same group as Colette's.
Q Okay, now, you can eliminate --
A (Interposing) I can eliminate Kimberly, Jeffrey, and Kris.
Q Is it accurate to say that if you did the elution test, you can eliminate any of the other three members?
A That is right.
Q Now, with respect to 114, a stain from the south closet door, what did you get there?
A I got the antigen A. That, along with anti B, tells me that the blood is Type A, which is the same as Colette's blood and it eliminates the other three people, Kimberly, Jeffrey, and Kris.
Q How about 352, Mrs. Glisson, stain number 141?
A I did both the crust test and absorption-elution and found anti B and antigen A resulting in Type A, the same type as Colette and would eliminate Jeffrey, Kristen, and Kimberly.
Q And, 117, the stain from the east radiator, and 118, the stain from the east wall over the northeast corner of the headboard, what did you get from those two?
A Okay, I did the absorption-elution and found antigen A, telling me it is Type A since anti B had been found in both of these exhibits -- it is the same as Colette's blood.
Q Okay, how about Government 350, an additional stain from the east wall over the north-east corner of the headboard?
A I did both the crust test and absorption-elution resulting in Type A blood, the same as Colette's blood and eliminating Kimberly, Jeffrey, and Kris.
MR. MURTAGH: Your Honor, the Government would move in 643.
(Government Exhibit 643 was received in evidence.)
MR. MURTAGH:
Q Mrs. Glisson, let me show you another chart, Government 644, and at the same time, let me show you what has been received as Government 103, the sheet and the pile of bedding on the floor of the master bedroom. Let me ask you to take a look at that and tell us if you recognize it?
A Yes, sir; I recognize it.
Q Now, with respect to this sheet, did you have occasion to perform any tests on areas one through 10?
A Yes, sir.
Q What did you get, please?
A I only did the crust test and I found anti B in all these are as which indicates Type A.
Q That would be consistent with --
A (Interposing) Colette's blood.
Q And can you eliminate anybody?
A Yes. I can eliminate Kimberly and Jeffrey.
Q How about area 11?
A Area 11, I did the crust test and did not get any agglutination. I did the absorption-elution and I found both the A blood factor and the B blood factor which tells me the blood is AB.
Q That would be the same type as --
A (Interposing) As Kimberly.
Q Now, let me ask you to take a look at an area on the sheet which appears to be numbered 11, and ask you whether that area corresponds to the area which you have just testified about as having Type AB blood?
A Yes, sir. I marked this area 11.
Q Would you describe where that is approximately on the sheet?
A It is on the side.
Q Would it be accurate to say that that is at the edge of the sheet?
A At the edge of the sheet.
Q All right, let me ask you about area 12. Did you test that?
A Yes, sir.
Q What did you get, please?
A I found anti B in the crust test which indicates A which is consistent with Colette's blood.
Q And you can eliminate --
A (Interposing) Kimberly and Jeffrey.
Q Okay, how about area 13?
A Area 13, I got no agglutination when I did the crust test; and when I did absorption-elution, I found both the blood factor A and the blood factor B which tells me the blood is of Type AB.
Q That would be the same type as?
A As Kimberly.
Q And you can eliminate --
A (Interposing) I can eliminate Colette, Jeffrey, and Kristen.
Q Can you find area 13 on that sheet, please, and would you show that to the jury, please?
A This is at the bottom of the sheet.
Q How would you characterize the stains in that area, Mrs. Glisson?
A This number 13?
Q Yes.
A These are blood drops.
Q Blood drops?
A They are not smears. They are drops of blood.
Q Okay, now, with respect to area 14, what did you get, please?
A Area 14, I found anti B which indicates Type A and which would be consistent with Colette's blood and inconsistent with Kimberly's and Jeffrey's.
Q Okay; now, what about area 15?
A I performed the crust test. I found anti B. I also did the absorption-elution, confirming that the blood is Type A, which is the same as Colette's blood. It cannot be Kimberly or Jeffrey or Kristen's blood.
Q Let me ask you, Mrs. Glisson, at that time, approximately how long did it take to perform the elution test?
A It took -- it would probably take at least four hours.
Q I see; now, with respect to area 16 through 28, what did you do, please?
A I did only the crust test, and I got anti B; and I indicate A.
Q Okay; that would be consistent with --
A (Interposing) Colette.
Q Okay; you can eliminate --
A (Interposing) Kimberly and Jeffrey.
Q Now, Mrs. Glisson, with respect to Government Exhibit 105, which has been identified as the piece of latex rubber found inside this sheet at the crime scene, what tests, if any, did you perform?
A I did the absorption-elution test, and I found the antigen A. That, in combination with anti B, types the blood as A, which is the same as Colette's blood. It would eliminate Kimberly, Jeffrey and Kris.
Q Now, with respect to Government 104 -- the bedspread and its corresponding vial identified as Government 108 -- what tests did you do, please?
A I did the absorption-elution and found the antigen A, and that in combination with anti B, types the blood as Type A, which is the same as Colette's blood, and eliminates Jeffrey, Kristen and Kimberly.
Q That refers to the bedspread which was found inside the sheet?
A That is right.
MR. MURTAGH: Your Honor, at this time, we would move in Government 644.
THE COURT: Very well.
(Government Exhibit 644 was received in evidence.)
MR. MURTAGH:
Q All right; let me show you Government Exhibit 645. Now, with respect to Government 128 -- the stains from the ceiling of the master bedroom near the light fixture -- what did you do with that, please?
A I did absorption-elution, and I found the antigen A, typing the blood as Type A, along with the antibody anti B, which is the same as Colette.
Q And you can eliminate --
A (Interposing) I can eliminate Kimberly, Jeffrey and Kristen.
Q Did you have occasion to test two other stains from that same area, Government 351 and 129?
A Yes; I did.
Q What were your results?
A On one of the areas, I did both the crust test and absorption-elution. In the other area, I just did absorption-elution. Both areas, in combination with the crust test, type of blood is Type A, which is the same as Colette's blood.
Q And you can eliminate the others, I take it?
A Yes; I can eliminate the other three.
Q Okay; how about with respect to Government Exhibit 130 -- the scrapings from the letters "Pig" on the headboard on the master bed?
A I did absorption-elution and I found the antigen A. That, in combination with anti B type of blood, types the blood as A -- the same as Colette -- and eliminates the other three people.
Q Okay; and how about Government 309 -- the piece of rug identified as D-207Cb)?
A I did absorption-elution and found both the antigen A and B, which types the blood as AB, in combination with the no agglutination in the crust test. This is the same as Kimberly's blood.
Q Okay; and you can eliminate --
A (interposing) Colette, Jeffrey and Kris.
Q The same results apply for Government 310?
A That is right.
MR. MURTAGH: Your Honor, at this time the Government will move in 645.
(Government Exhibit 645 was received in evidence.)
MR. MURTAGH:
Q I show you Government Exhibit 646. Now, Mrs. Glisson, with respect to Government 336 -- a stain removed from the stepladder next to the sink in the hall bathroom, what tests did you perform?
A I performed the absorption-elution -- excuse me, I didn't do that one. I did not do the stepladder.
Q I am sorry; that is Dr. Chamberlain's test; but what conclusion would you draw from that?
A That the blood was Type B, and the same type as Jeffrey.
Q Can you eliminate?
A I can eliminate Colette, Kimberly and Kristen.
Q Okay; how about the wicker stool -- Government Exhibit 337?
A The wicker stool -- I did the absorption-elution, and that -- in combination with anti A -- types the blood as B, which is the same as Jeffrey.
Q Okay; and 338, which is identified as stains from the front and right side of the sink, what did you do?
A I did absorption-elution, and I found antigen B in combination with anti A, that types the blood as Type B, the same type as Jeffrey.
Q Okay; and you can eliminate whom?
A Colette, Kimberly, and Kristen.
Q How about Government Exhibit 339 -- more stains from the right side of the sink?
A I did absorption-elution and found Type B by combining anti A with antigen B, and it is the same as Jeffrey's blood.
Q Okay; how about the linen closet -- Government 344?
A I did both the crust test and absorption-elution, resulting in Type B, the same as Jeffrey's blood.
Q Okay; and you can eliminate --
A (Interposing) I can eliminate Colette, Kristen and Kimberly.
Q Okay; how about the south bedroom and Government 346 -- which is a stain removed -- I am sorry, it is a splinter removed from the north pillow?
A A precipitin test was done, and apparently -- a crust test was also done -- and it was insufficient for absorption-elution. With this type of result, we can only conclude it is human blood.
Q All right; how about Government 348, which is a stain from the north wall of the south bedroom -- and I don't [know] whether you can see it or not in that lower photograph -- but if you can, I would like for you to point out area 134, please -- or on the model?
Mrs. Glisson, if you could, you could step down here. This might be easier for the jury to see. Now -- if you can read it from here -- can you tell us, please, what results you got for 134?
A There was no reaction with the crust test, and I found both antigens A and B, resulting in Blood Type AB, the same type as Kimberly.
Q Okay, now, that is Kimberly's room. I believe that has been identified as the south bedroom. You can eliminate the other members of the family; is that correct?
A Yes, sir.
Q Okay, now, would you point to stain 136 which has been identified as Government Exhibit 349 and tell us what you got for that, please? I think perhaps if you stood to the side and used the pointer, the jury could see better.
A Okay, stain 136 is right here in the south bedroom. It is about seven feet over the bed.
Q What did you get for that, please?
A On that stain, I did absorption-elution and found antigen A and then a combination of anti B or the type of blood is Type A, which is the same as Colette's blood.
MR. MURTAGH: Your Honor, at this time, the Government would offer 646.
(Government Exhibit No. 646 was received in evidence.)
MR. MURTAGH: Your Honor, if I have not done so with Mr. Laber, I would move into evidence Government Exhibit 647 which is the chart that he has testified to.
THE COURT: Very well.
(Government Exhibit No. 647 was received in evidence.)
MR. MURTAGH:
Q Mrs. Glisson, I show you Government 648 and, with respect to the Government Exhibit 357 which has been identified as a green yarn from the throw rug in the north bedroom, Kristen's room, would you tell us, please, what you found?
A When I did the crust test, I found anti A and anti B and that in conjunction with finding H in doing absorption-elution, I concluded the blood was Type O which is the same as Kristen's blood.
Q And you can eliminate?
A And I can eliminate Colette, Kimberly, and Jeffrey.
Q All right, and what about the green throw rug, number 358?
A That gave the same results. I had anti A, anti B, and H and in combination it types it as Type O which is Kristen's blood -- the same as Kristen.
Q Now, let me ask you with respect to one of the stained areas found near Kristen's bed, Government 359, also identified as D-48NB, and ask you what you got for that.
A I did only absorption-elution on this and I found H and that, in combination with anti A and anti B types of blood is O, which is the same as Kristen's blood.
Q And you can eliminate?
A And I can eliminate Colette, Kimberly, and Jeffrey.
Q Okay, and how about Government 360 and 361, some additional stains from the floor near the bed in Kristen's room?
A Well, I only did absorption-elution, and I found H and that, in combination with the anti A and anti B that somebody else had done, I concluded that was Type O which was Kristen's blood and it is inconsistent with Colette, Kimberly, and Jeffrey.
Q Okay, now, let me ask you with respect to Government 304 and its corresponding vial 305, what did you do?
A I did absorption-elution.
Q Okay, and what conclusions do you draw based on your -- I'm sorry. What did you get?
A I found the antigen A.
Q Okay, now, what conclusion do you draw based on that in conjunction with Dr. Chamberlain's results?
A He apparently got a weak anti B and in repeating he got no reaction, so instead of calling it Type A, I only indicated A. It's most likely A.
Q All right, and that's consistent with the same group as?
A As Colette.
Q And inconsistent?
A With Jeffrey and Kristen.
Q Okay, let me ask you, based on your findings alone, can you eliminate Kristen MacDonald as a possible source of that blood type?
A Yes.
Q Okay.
A It can't be Kristen because Kristen is Type O. She would not have any antigens at all.
Q All right, now, with respect to Government 301, the portion of the floor bearing a footprint and identified as Dr. MacDonald's and its corresponding vial, Government 303, what results did you get?
A I found the antigen A and, in combination with the crust test of anti B, identified the blood as Type A which is the same type as Colette. You can eliminate Kimberly, Jeffrey, and Kristen.
MR. MURTAGH: Your Honor, the Government would move in 648.
THE COURT: Very well.
(Government Exhibit No. 648 was received in evidence.)
MR. MURTAGH: Government 649.
MR. MURTAGH:
Q Okay, now, with respect to Government 371 also identified by the CID as D-60NB, the top sheet from Kristen's bed, specifically with regard to areas four and five -- by the way, can you point those out on the second photograph?
A No; I would have to see the exhibit.
Q Let me show you the exhibit.
A It was in the corner of the sheet -- area four down here.
Q How would you characterize area four?
A These were drops.
Q How about area five?
A Area five was a large stain -- splatters -- a soaked-through stain.
Q Now, with respect to those areas, would you please tell us what you did and what you got?
A On these areas I did the crust test and found anti B, and I also did absorption-elution and found the A antigen, concluding that the blood is Type A, the same group as Colette.
Q Which members of the family, if any, can you eliminate as a possible source of this stain?
A I can eliminate Jeffrey, Kimberly, and Kristen.
Q Now, with respect to Government 373, which I believe is D-64NB, the bottom sheet of that bed, specifically stain area two, can you see two in the photograph?
A No, sir.
Q All right, let me show you the sheet, Government Exhibit 373.
A Area two is toward the end -- somewhat toward the end of the sheet.
Q Now, what tests did you perform on that and what results did you get?
A I did absorption-elution and I also did a crust test, concluding that the blood is Type A, the same blood group as Colette, and it eliminates Jeffrey, Kristen, and Kimberly's.
Q Okay, how about Government 378 -- I'm sorry. 375 I skipped; 375 is D-66NB, the plastic sheet from the upper mattress -- areas one -- well, let me take them one at a time -- area one; what did you do on that?
A Area one -- I did the crust test and I didn't find any antibodies, and I did absorption-elution and I found the antigens A and B, concluding that the blood is Type AB, which is the same as Kimberly.
Q Okay, who else can you eliminate?
A I can eliminate Jeffrey, Colette and Kristen.
Q Area 2?
A Area 2, I found anti B, and I found the antigen A, concluding that the blood is Type A, the same type as Colette, eliminating Jeffrey, Kristen and Kimberly.
Q How about Government 378, the stains from the west wall?
A I did a crust test and I found anti B and the antigen A, concluding the blood is Type A, which is the same as Colette, and I'm eliminating Jeffrey, Kristen, and Kimberly.
Q Now, that is also identified as D-69NB, is that correct?
A That's right.
Q Why don't I also ask you about 379, also known as D-70NB, and then ask you to step down and indicate on the wall of the north bedroom?
A Okay. On 379 I got the same result. I found anti B and the A, which tells me the blood is Type A. It is the same as Colette and eliminates Jeffrey, Kristen and Kimberly.
Q Now, Mrs. Glisson, if you would, please, taking the pointer and stepping down to the -- what I believe is the west wall of the north bedroom -- Kristen's room -- if you would point out those corresponding areas for the two stains, 69NB and 70NB.
A This is 69NB and 70NB is right below it.
Q And that is Type A blood?
A Yes, this is all Type A blood.
MR. MURTAGH: The Government would offer 649 and ask that it be received.
(Government Exhibit No. 649 was received in evidence.)
MR. MURTAGH:
Q Government 364 is the green bedspread from Kristen's bed, and 365, 366, and 367 are cuttings from that same bedspread. Now, what did you do with regard to those cuttings?
A I did absorption-elution on these three areas. In area 1, I found the antigen A in combination with anti B types of blood is A, which is the same as Colette's; and in area 3 I found the same thing -- Type A which is the same as Colette's was. This A eliminates Kimberly and Jeff and Kristen.
In another area, area 5, I found both the antigen A and the antigen B, typing the blood as AB, in combination with no antibodies from the crust test, and this is the same as Kimberly's blood, which eliminates Colette, Jeffrey and Kristen.
Q Now, Mrs. Glisson, with respect to Government's 368, otherwise known as the pink blanket D-58NB, what tests did you perform on those three areas?
A I didn't do these areas.
Q I'm sorry. What conclusions would you draw?
A The same conclusions as --
Q (Interposing) I believe Mr. Laber testified to that?
A Yes.
Q Okay.
MR. MURTAGH: Your Honor, the Government would offer 650.
(Government Exhibit No. 650 was received in evidence.)
MR. MURTAGH: Your Honor, I will show the witness Government Exhibit 651, which it promises is its last blood chart for the afternoon.
MR. MURTAGH:
Q Okay, Mrs. Glisson, now, let me ask you with respect to Government Exhibit 341, 342, and 343, the stains from the wall over the couch in the living room, from which Dr. Chamberlain testified he got a negative benzidine. What conclusion, if any, would you draw from that?
A That stain wasn't blood.
Q I'm sorry?
A That stain was not blood.
Q With respect to Government Exhibit L, the Esquire magazine, what tests, if any, did you perform on that?
A I did the crust test and I also did the absorption-elution.
Q What results did you get, please?
A In the crust test I had a weak reaction for anti B, and on the absorption-elution, I found both A antigen and B antigen, which I have to conclude or at least indicate that the A -- well, the A has to be there and the B has to be there.
It could be a mixture of AB and A.
Q Now, that would be consistent with what two groups?
A Well, it would be consistent with Colette, and it would be consistent with Kimberly.
Q And which groups, if any, could it not come from?
A It could not come from Jeffrey, and it could not come from Kris -- Kristen.
Q Now, let me ask you with respect to Government Exhibit 136 and 137, the stains from in front of the kitchen cabinet, on the floor of the kitchen; and what did you do there, please?
A I did the absorption-elution and found the B antigen in both of these stains, and that in combination with the anti A tells me the blood is Type B, which is the same as Jeffrey's blood, and would eliminate Colette, Kimberly and Kristen.
Q Now with respect to Government 132, the scrapings from the underside of the left kitchen sink, Dr. Chamberlain, I believe, testified he got a positive benzidine and positive precipitin; and what conclusions, if any, would you draw from that?
A That the stain is human blood.
MR. MURTAGH: Your Honor, the Government offers Government Exhibit 651 in evidence.
(Government Exhibit No. 651 was received in evidence.)
MR. MURTAGH: Your Honor, at this time the Government would offer smaller copies of these charts, that is, containing the same evidence as the witnesses have testified to. I would seek leave to have them reproduced and distributed to counsel, and ultimately published to the jury.
THE COURT: All right, sir.
MR. MURTAGH:
Q Mrs. Glisson, now we've got the ABO system here, and the evidence shows that four members of the family possessed every one of the four ABO blood groups. So, my question is, as between different members of the family, does the ABO system discriminate or individualize blood stains?
A Yes, sir.
MR. MURTAGH: Your Honor, that concludes direct examination. Defense may cross-examine.
THE COURT: Any questions?
MR. SEGAL: Yes, Your Honor, I do have a few questions.
THE COURT: All right.
C R O S S - E X A M I N A T I O N 3:31 p.m.
BY MR. SEGAL:
Q Mrs. Glisson, did I understand earlier today that you described at one time in your career that you had done what is known as blood banking type work?
A Yes, sir.
Q May I ask again when you did the blood banking work?
A I did a little bit at Oliver General Army Hospital when I went there from one section to the other, and then when I went to the VA Hospital, I also did some.
Q Well, I am not clear in my mind as to the dates. Which was the first time that you had a job in which you did blood banking?
A This was in 148, when I went to -- I think it was '48, when I went to Oliver General Hospital, and then when that hospital closed, I went to the VA Hospital for a couple of years.
Q The blood banking -- that would involve doing work with fluid blood; doesn't it?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did you receive any training for the typing of fluid blood?
A Yes, sir.
Q When you went to the hospital?
A Yes, sir.
Q Would I be correct in assuming that you had not been trained in fluid blood typing before you started at Oliver General?
A I had in college -- I had a class in clinical pathology. It was a year's class and we went through laboratory techniques.
Q All right, you did a little elementary fluid blood typing in college at Skidmore; is that, right?
A Well, I don't call it elementary.
Q All right. But when you went to Oliver General, you had more training in fluid blood typing?
A Yes, sir.
Q How long were you trained in that area?
A Well, most medical -- I was trained, see, in college and we would maybe go to each section and maybe train for a couple of weeks and work with somebody and then they would --
Q (Interposing) I am sorry. You have a very lovely soft voice, but I did not hear. You said a couple of weeks at Oliver General?
A Probably a couple of weeks in each section and then we would work under a supervisor who would watch our work. I don't really remember.
Q Would I be correct in assuming that you believe you really had your training then in college on fluid blood typing?
A I had some; yes, sir.
Q All right, how much training did you have in college on fluid blood typing, approximately?
A I don't remember. I don't know. I can't remember.
Q Was it less than a week or more than a week? I want just an approximation from you.
A Oh, it was probably more than a week.
Q A month?
A I really don't know. I mean, it has been 30-something years.
Q I had not noticed that, Mrs. Glisson.
A Thank you.
Q Let me ask you this: would it be fair to say that fluid blood typing is a lot easier than dried blood stain typing?
A Yes, sir.
Q But even to do the fluid blood typing, you had to have at least some weeks to maybe even a couple of months of training to be able to do that properly?
A No, sir.
Q You did not have to have at least some weeks to a couple of months to do fluid blood typing?
A Not a couple of months -- I would not say so.
Q A month -- take whatever figure you want to tell me?
A I don't really remember. I remember going into the sections and somebody would tell me how to do blood typing and then I would work under their supervision.
Q You would work under their supervision; right?
A Because clinical laboratories don't spend an awful lot of time training. You are supposed to know something when you get there.
Q If you don't, somebody does teach you, though, what you have to know as far as they are concerned?
A Yes.
Q Would it be fair to say that in doing dried blood typing, the more experience and the more training a person has, it increases the likelihood of being accurate and correct in the results that the person finds?
A No, sir. I think with more experience, you may be able to get more out of a blood stain -- like, you know, a faint stain. Maybe a more experienced person would be able to get better results or more conclusive results, and then the inexperienced person, perhaps, would not get a conclusive result and therefore, would not have a result. You don't get, you know, a wrong answer and a right answer.
Q Well, is it your experience in that once a person completes a two-month training course, they are as good at dried blood typing as a person who has had two years of actual experience in dried blood typing?
A Well, as I said, I think they would be as accurate as the person with more experience, but they may not be of the type of the stains that a more experienced person would be able to type.
Q But as far as identifying, you are satisfied that two months training is not improved by having two years experience added to it?
A I think I have answered.
MR. MURTAGH: Your Honor, I think the witness has answered the question the best she can.
MR. SEGAL: I think the witness has answered a different question than I have asked, Your Honor. I would appreciate the answer to mine.
THE COURT: Well, ask that question one more time and she will answer that particular question.
BY MR. SEGAL:
Q As far as accuracy and correctness of findings, you think there is no difference between the work that a person would do after two months of training than the same person would do after two months of training and two years of experience added to it?
A No, I don't think there is any difference.
Q No difference, all right. Does two years of experience in a forensic crime lab add anything at all to a person's ability to do work in terms of dried blood stain typing?
A I think I said previously that a person with more experience would be able to take a stain with less stain on it and get a result, while perhaps an inexperienced person could not do that.
Q Well, now, in February of 1970, how many chemists did you have -- was it a section or a branch that you were heading up at the CID Lab?
A I was just a Senior Serologist at that time.
Q I see. All right, how many chemists were working there in that lab along with you in Serology?
A In Serology? Well, I was trained by two people. There were two there and then Larry Flinn came. I think this is accurate. Larry Flinn came and he was trained, so there were probably three of us at that time. Eventually, the other two people came and the previous ones got out of the service so they left and went some place else.
Q All right --
A (Interposing) Probably two or three in there doing serology work. It varied.
Q In February of 1970, Mrs. Glisson?
A Yes, sir, at least that because we had to have at least three other than me.
Q Well, would one of them be Larry Flinn?
A That is right.
Q Second would be Craig Chamberlain; is that right?
A That is right.
Q And the other would be Terry Laber?
A That is right.
Q Now, sometime in the latter part of February of 1970, you learned that all of this physical evidence that had been collected from the MacDonald house was descending upon the Crime Lab for analysis; isn't that right?
A That is right.
Q Would it be fair to say that that job placed a great strain on the facilities or the staff, rather, of the Serology Section in the Crime Lab?
A That is right.
Q And you started the dried blood testing on or about what date?
A The 23rd of February.
Q It was finished the first time on what date?
A I don't remember. I think it was probably the end of March. I am not sure. I would have to check into that. Additional evidence was coming in, too, so we had many additional pieces.
Q I appreciate that, but I think the first batch that came was flown back with Craig Chamberlain. When did you finish evaluating that for dried blood?
A I am not sure because we wrote a preliminary report and I think that was at the end of March, I think. The case was still not completed and we wrote another report.
Q That was about two months later in 1970?
A I don't remember the dates. I would have to check into that.
Q Do you have any records with you that would help you in that regard?
A No, I don't, not here. I do up on the eighth floor. I have all of the reports and I could tell from that.
Q I think I may have a few questions that will carry us past the break, so if I may impose upon you, I would ask you to look at it or bring it down with you after the break. Putting aside the exact date when this first batch of various items that were brought to you for blood testing was done -- putting aside the exact date -- did it require overtime work by you and the other chemists to do serology work to get this done?
A Yes, sir, I am sure we worked overtime.
Q Was there a considerable amount of urgency from the standpoint of the prosecutors and CID to get that work done and ready for them?
A Yes. They were investigating the case and they wanted some results.
Q Was there any Saturday or Sunday work required in getting the blood typing work done?
A I don't remember. I might have worked some Saturdays. I don't remember. I know I worked that Washington's Birthday -- that holiday on Monday. I know that, and I might have worked on a Saturday, too. I am not sure.
Q On February 23rd, 1970, to your recollection and to your knowledge, had Craig Chamberlain finished the blood training that he received as part of the six-month CID Lab Technician's program?
A Had he finished?
Q Yes.
A Yes, sir.
Q When had he finished it as far as you can recall?
A I don't remember. I remember him working in the section. I don't remember. I have trained many people.
Q What about Terry Laber? Had he finished that two months of the six months Lab Tech training at that point in February of 1970?
A Yes, sir.
Q But both of them were really brand-new graduates of that training program of which you were the supervisor for serology?
A Well, yes. They had not been in the Lab very long.
Q It was because of the fact that you had so much work to do that you and Mr. Flinn did not do most of this work by yourselves and you had to use other two men because of the amount of evidence that was being dealt with?
A That is right.
Q Now, you were the Chief or the Senior person in the Serology Section. Are you the one who assigned the other three chemists to which parts of these various tests that would be run?
A No, sir.
Q Who made that decision as to who was to do this particular testing and who was to do that particular testing?
A Craig Chamberlain was coordinator of the case.
Q That decision about who performed what test was made by Mr. Chamberlain; is that right?
A Not what tests -- which pieces of evidence a person would look at.
Q You mean that it was Mr. Chamberlain who decided --
A (Interposing) Yes. He knew what all the evidence was. We did not even know all the evidence. We would take cases as the exhibits were presented.
Q Let me re-phrase the question. I have not made it clear enough. Some of the tests that we are talking about were performed by Craig himself; is that right?
A That is right.
Q Some were performed by Mr. Flinn; is that right?
A That is right.
Q Other tests were performed by Terry Laber?
A That is right.
Q Who decided which one was to do which test -- Craig Chamberlain or you decided that?
A I think Craig Chamberlain was handing out the evidence. Perhaps, I had something to do with it -- maybe with the pajama top and the sheets. I took them -- well, maybe Mr. Conners had something to do with it. I don't remember. Mr. Conners was Chief of the Chemistry Section and might have suggested to Craig to give different people pieces of evidence. I expect that is what happened. I don't know. I don't remember.
Q After hearing all that, you don't really know then whether the chief of the section made the decision or whether Chamberlain made that decision? You do know that you didn't make that decision?
A I know that I didn't make the decision, and I know Craig Chamberlain was the coordinator of the case and had all the evidence.
Q Well, as far as you know, and I am only limiting you to what you actually have knowledge of, it was Chamberlain who assigned himself to do the absorption-elution test that he did -- that is, as far as you know?
A I don't understand. He did not do the absorption-elution -- he did on some pieces but not on others.
Q Yes, I realize that. All I want to know, to the extent that Chamberlain did some absorption-elution tests, so far as you have any knowledge, he is the one who decided, "You, Craig, you go do those tests," is that right?
A No.
Q As far as Mr. Laber doing some absorption-elution tests, as far as you know, it was Chamberlain who said, "You, Terry Laber, you do the absorption-elution tests on those pieces of evidence"?
A Oh, no, sir. That was not the way it was. The best I can recall is that I know Craig Chamberlain had control of all the evidence and he would give us pieces of evidence, but the one that got the evidence usually did both the crust test and the absorption-elution except in the case of Larry Flinn. I think he had a court coming up and so I took over his exhibits and did absorption-elution -- his exhibits.
Q As a matter of fact, Mr. Flinn did mostly or entirely the Lattes and crust test of the evidence in this particular case?
A Right. He did not stay with this case very long --
MR. MURTAGH: (Interposing) Your Honor, we would OBJECT to this line of questioning. I think it is beyond the scope of Direct. Counsel had an opportunity to ask these questions of the witnesses previous to Mrs. Glisson.
MR. SEGAL: This witness has been asked to draw conclusions about the kind of work. I merely wanted to know who made the assignments to do the work. She was then the Senior Technician in the area and now the Chief of the whole area. She has been qualified in all these matters, Your Honor. I cannot conceive of why the Defendant may now not ask her a few questions about who got the work and then why.
THE COURT: She said that Mr. Chamberlain was the coordinator and passed out the evidence. He is the one that came up there and got it and passed it out. Now, what else do you want to know?
MR. SEGAL: Well, because I am not clear what Government talk means when they say "coordinator," I only want to find out whether, in fact --
THE COURT: (Interposing) Define coordinator for us.
THE WITNESS: Coordinator, in this case, it means that Craig Chamberlain did collect the evidence. He knew what the case was about, and he had control of the evidence and he coordinated his efforts with our efforts and we just took what he -- we took the evidence from him and he worked with all four of us on it. He was sort of chief of that case, in other words.
BY MR. SEGAL:
Q I think we understand it, Mrs. Glisson. I am not looking for the whole case. I only want to know a small part of it. That is, who told Flinn to do Lattes and crust tests, Laber to do absorption-elution tests, and Chamberlain to do absorption-elution tests. So far as you have told us, you believe that was a decision that Craig made; right?
MR. MURTAGH: Yout Honor, again, we would OBJECT.
THE COURT: I will SUSTAIN it.
BY MR. SEGAL:
Q Let me ask you something now. The absorption-elution test, that is a more complicated test than the Lattes test; isn't it?
A It takes more time; yes, sir. It has more steps involved; right.
Q All right, now, is it not a more complicated test?
A Yes, sir.
Q There are, as you said a minute ago, more steps in doing the absorption-elution test than there is in doing the Lattes or crust test?
A That is right.
Q And that requires greater attention to detail to do these absorption-elution tests than to do the Lattes or crust test; doesn't it?
A Yes.
Q There is also more possibility of error when doing the absorption-elution test than doing the Lattes or crust test?
A Yes.
Q The Lattes test, as a matter of fact, is a one-step test?
A That is right.
Q Assuming that you have an adequate amount of blood to do it, it is relatively a foolproof test -- that Lattes or crust test?
A That is right.
Q Is that right?
A That is right.
Q By the way, just while I am thinking about it, are you still using the benzidine test to identify blood at the Laboratory?
A No, sir. The Army cannot use benzidine anymore.
Q Not use benzidine?
A It is a carcinogenic.
Q I am going to get it all out. Just let me do it one step at a time.
THE COURT: She just told it all. She said they could not use it anymore because they had found out, just like so many other things, it causes cancer. Isn't that what you said?
THE WITNESS: That is right.
THE COURT: All right, ask her something else.
MR. SEGAL: Well, all I ask is for a little opportunity to get it in an orderly fashion and not to just sort of hit and miss.
BY MR. SEGAL:
Q When did you stop using the benzidine test at the CID laboratory?
MR. MURTAGH: Your Honor, I OBJECT on the grounds of relevancy.
MR. SEGAL: They have it all over their charts, Your Honor, that they use it. And they have already established through this witness that they kept some of these tests that are still valuable. I want to inquire about some changes that may have been made.
THE COURT: I believe it would be quicker if you just tell us.
THE WITNESS: I don't really remember. It was probably about five years ago -- maybe -- about five years ago.
BY MR. SEGAL:
Q 1973 or '74?
A Could be; it might be '75. I don't remember.
Q Now, so far as you know, Mr. Flinn only did Lattes work as far as the dried blood testing in this particular case?
A Yes, sir.
Q Now, of the three men in the Section -- I am talking about persons who had less experience than yourself -- of the three chemists who were working on blood work in this Section, Mr. Flinn, the most experienced of those persons with two years' experience -- he did the easiest test -- the Lattes crust test -- didn't he?
MR. BLACKBURN: Your Honor, we would OBJECT to this line.
THE COURT: Well, I will SUSTAIN that. That is a matter of argument.
BY MR. SEGAL:
Q Did he do the easiest of the two tests -- Mr. Flinn?
A Did he? Yes; he did.
Q Mr. Chamberlain and Mr. Laber -- who had just finished blood testing -- they did the harder ones, the absorption-elution tests; isn't that right?
A They did some absorption-elutions; yes.
Q They did the test requiring the greater experience and relatively higher degree of expertise; isn't that right?
A That is right.
Q Isn't it true that the reason Chamberlain took that work for himself and assigned it to Laber -- as far as you know -- so that he and Laber could get experience doing these tests?
MR. MURTAGH: OBJECTION.
THE WITNESS: No, sir.
BY MR. SEGAL:
Q That is not the reason they did it; I see.
MR. MURTAGH: Your Honor, the question was argumentative.
THE COURT: Yes; but it is answered.
MR. MURTAGH: I realize that.
THE COURT: In a manner which the Court does not perceive to be adverse to you -- to your client's interest -- and I will let the answer stand.
BY MR. SEGAL:
Q Let me ask you, Mrs. Glisson -- do you know of any reason why Mr. Chamberlain assigned for himself and Mr. Laber the absorption-elution test and let Mr. Flinn do the Lattes crust test?
A Yes, sir.
Q And you know that, because what Mr. Chamberlain told you --
A (Interposing) Because --
MR. MURTAGH: (Interposing) Your Honor --
MR. SEGAL: (Interposing) I have not finished the question. Will you gentlemen please allow me?
BY MR. SEGAL:
Q All I want to know, Mrs. Glisson, is -- do you know because Mr. Chamberlain told you the reason he made that decision?
A No; he did not tell me the reason.
Q You are about to speculate as to why he did it?
MR. BLACKBURN: OBJECTION.
THE COURT: I will SUSTAIN that.
THE WITNESS: I know why.
THE COURT: This witness said the answer to your question was "yes." I am going to stop right now and let her tell why, if you want to.
MR. SEGAL: May I ask first, Your Honor -- I will be glad to get it --
THE COURT: (Interposing) No; I come first in this particular series. Answer the question.
THE WITNESS: I know that, as I said before, we were given pieces of evidence, and Larry Flinn was given his evidence. He did the Lattes test, because that is the first thing we do, usually, other than -- you know -- determine if it is blood.
And I believe he was going to court. There was some reason why he could not continue; and so he just did a very few pieces of evidence, and he did not have time to do absorption-elution, so he gave it to me to do.
BY MR. SEGAL:
Q How long was Mr. Flinn away at court -- months?
A I don't remember, but sometime -- he might have been gone. I don't really know the circumstances, but I think it was court. He wouldn't have taken vacation at this time.
Q I am sorry?
A I said, I think it was a court he was going to, because he would not have just taken a vacation. It was something he had to do -- had to go.
Q Mrs. Glisson, did you ever have a technician away a month at court alone?
A No; not a whole month. It might be this time.
Q That is just your deduction about why Mr. Chamberlain had Mr. Flinn do the Lattes crust test, isn't it?
A No, sir.
Q No one ever told you that?
A No, sir; I observed that when Larry Flinn was not going to be there, I took over his absorption-elutions and did them.
Q I understand; you took over that.
A That is right.
Q But while he was there, he was doing the Lattes test. I want to know whether that is your personal knowledge that Craig made the decision because of the court case, or whether Craig made the decision because he wanted to do the testing himself.
A I don't think Craig made decisions like that. We made them between us. I think Larry Flinn probably said, "I am going off; will you do my exhibits for absorption-elution?" And if so, I took them and did them, Craig Chamberlain probably did not even step into that at all.
Q I asked you that question, I thought, in the beginning, as to who made the decision about assigning the work. Do you now have some memory as to who made the decision of who would do the absorption-elution tests of the various items, and who would do the Lattes tests --
MR. BLACKBURN: (Interposing) Your Honor, to these two different questions, we would OBJECT.
THE COURT: Maybe she can answer the two of them at the time. If she can, I will let her do it.
MR. SEGAL: All for the same price.
THE WITNESS: I think you misunderstood me. Craig Chamberlain did not come up to us and say, "You do absorption-elution on this piece of evidence." That is not the way it worked. We worked according to what exhibits we had.
If there was enough blood to do absorption-elution and the Lattes test, we did both tests, except on occasion where maybe they were busy doing another one, and I would do the absorption-elution, too.
BY MR. SEGAL:
Q The truth of the matter is that one person did not do all of the blood typing tests on an item of evidence they had before them? There were occasions where one person would do one test and another person would do another test?
A That is right.
Q That is very simple, isn't it, Mrs. Glisson?
MR. MURTAGH: OBJECTION.
THE COURT: Well, now -- look, Counselor --
MR. SEGAL: (Interposing) Please, instruct me, Your Honor. It is a simple point --
THE COURT: (Interposing) Will you listen to me?
MR. SEGAL: Yes, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Very well; just stick to the questioning without the comments.
MR. SEGAL: Well, Your Honor, I would ask that perhaps the Court instruct the witness --
THE COURT: (Interposing) Just ask the question.
MR. SEGAL: May I ask for an instruction to the witness, Your Honor -- as I am entitled to ask for -- that if the witness will kindly listen to the question and address her answer to that, we will perhaps make some progress a little better.
THE COURT: I said, ask your question.
BY MR. SEGAL:
Q Let me ask you this on a different subject, Mrs. Glisson -- so maybe we will get a little progress going here -- prior to February 17, 1970, how many times have you ever gone to a homicide crime scene for the purpose of processing blood stains?
A I don't believe I ever went to a crime scene.
Q You had never gone prior to February 17th to a crime scene? You had never gone to a crime scene?
A No, sir.
Q That is your best recollection? You had never gone to a crime scene prior to that time?
A That's right.
Q Who trained Mr. Chamberlain as to whether a particular suspected blood stain at a crime scene should be either scraped or lifted off an item, or whether the whole item should be brought into the laboratory? Are you responsible for that training?
A I might be.
Q Well, if a blood stain was found on a small item -- like a pair of glasses -- on the glass part of it, did you train Mr. Chamberlain to scrape that item off at the crime scene, or did you train him to bring it back in some evidence container for examination in the laboratory?
A I don't know. May I explain?
Q Certainly.
A When we get things -- bloody objects in the laboratory -- for instance, if it is blood on a rock, okay? We learn to scrape off the blood. This is in the training. This is the way it is trained. We scrape that blood off onto a glass slide, then moisten it and get the rest of the blood onto fibers to do absorption-elution, so perhaps he was using that technique. I don't know.
He also went to CID school and went to crime scenes. Ordinarily, the laboratory does not go to a crime scene. That is an investigator's responsibility, and that is in CID.
Q With a small item like a pair of glasses -- considering the fact that you suggested just a moment ago -- both scrape it and then perhaps take a fiber and get the rest of it off; right? Would it not have been better to bring back the glasses to the laboratory to do that work than to try to do it in a house where a crime had taken place?
A Not necessarily, because maybe he felt that the blood speck was going to fall off the glasses in transportation. I can't --
Q (Interposing) Transportation might cause it to fall?
A It could, if it was that small a speck.
Q Mrs. Glisson, how much effort does it take to get blood stains -- dried blood stains -- off a pair of glasses. Could you tell me from your experience?
MR. BLACKBURN: Your Honor, we would OBJECT.
MR. MURTAGH: OBJECT.
THE COURT: OVERRULED.
BY MR. SEGAL:
Q I am asking, from your experience, how much effort does it take to get a dried blood stain off a piece of glass?
A Not much effort.
Q Do you have to scrape it?
A You scrape it and get it on the slide.
Q You don't just shake it like this (indicating) and have it drop off on the floor, do you?
A No; my feeling was that maybe he thought if he transported the eyeglasses in a plastic bag, he might lose the blood spot into the plastic bag, which would be hard to recover. Maybe that is what he thought. I don't know what he thought.
Q Of course, you yourself had no experience in that problem of transporting evidence or not transporting evidence from the crime scene; is that right?
A No, sir; I don't believe I had been to a crime scene at that time.
Q You had not experience then? That is your answer?
A That is right.
Q That is simple enough.
MR. ANDERSON: OBJECTION.
THE COURT: SUSTAINED. Do not consider the comment of Counsel, "simple enough." Proceed.
BY MR. SEGAL:
Q I would like to take a look, if you would, at Government Exhibit 120?
MR. MURTAGH: Do you know what it is?
MR. SEGAL: I thought you had these all memorized -- the sheet from the master bedroom.
MR. MURTAGH: The sheet from the master bedroom.
(Counsel confer.)
THE COURT: Mr. Segal, about how much longer do you think you will be?
MR. SEGAL: Twenty minutes or so, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Well, it is time to take our afternoon recess -- as a matter of fact, a little past that time. I thought maybe you might finish with this witness before we did.
But we will take our afternoon recess, and we are going to make it a little longer today, because I have to see Counsel and get together some ground rules about tomorrow's activities; so we will come back today at 4:30. And I will ask Counsel to see me in chambers so we can get these things agreed upon ten minutes from now.
Take a recess until 4:30.
(The proceeding was recessed at 4:01 p.m., to reconvene at 4:30 p.m., this same day.)
F U R T H E R P R O C E E D I N G S 4:30 p.m.
(The following proceedings were held in the presence of the jury and alternates.)
(Whereupon, JANICE S. GLISSON, the witness on the stand at the time of recess, resumed the stand and testified further as follows:)
THE COURT: Are there further questions of this witness?
MR. SEGAL: Yes; a few more, Your Honor
THE COURT: Go ahead.
C R O S S - E X A M I N A T I O N 4:31 p.m. (resumed)
BY MR. SEGAL:
Q Now, Mrs. Glisson, were there any unstained control samples taken from the various items in the house that you examined?
A Yes, sir.
Q And what is the purpose of taking an unstained control sample from a, say, an item like a sheet?
A To be sure there are no non-specific reactions occurring in the test.
Q In lay terms, would that mean that you want to make sure that there is nothing already on the fabric or inherent in the way it was made that might affect the blood testing procedure; is that right?
A That's right.
Q So that it is necessary in order to assure that you are getting proper results in your tests that you first start and take one of these unstained control samples and check that out for what it will show in the test; in general terms, is that right?
A It is run at the same time as the stained area is run.
Q Yes, it is done at the same time, but it is one of the first steps that you take an unstained control sample.
A (Witness nods affirmatively.)
Q When that is done -- a piece of a sheet or a garment is cut for that purpose -- is that in any way noted or marked on the sheet?
A Sometimes it is and sometimes it is not.
Q Do you mean to say that it is possible that someone would cut something from a piece of evidence that had been supplied by the CID and not marked to indicate whether or not a control sample has been taken?
A Yes, sir; it could happen. May I explain?
Q Certainly.
A Sometimes when I take a blood sample, I will take the blood sample, and then I will cut the area larger to include the unstained area so I'll have them both together.
Q But, if you have a blood sample that is included in the area where you are taking an unstained sample, you would have marked -- for example, a sheet -- you would have marked on the sheet that a blood sample was in that area; would you not?
A Certainly; most of the time I do. I might have forgotten to do that occasionally. I mean that happens.
Q But, of course, it would not ordinarily be your procedure to intentionally omit marking -- well, this is where I took the blood sample from when I cut into the fabric; is that right?
A That's right.
Q And, in fact, it would be sloppy laboratory procedure to cut a blood sample out of the fabric and not mark it on the larger piece of fabric left?
MR. MURTAGH: OBJECTION.
THE WITNESS: I wouldn't say it would be sloppy. It might be a mistake on my part, but not sloppy.
Q I wasn't asking you personally. I am saying, in view of the fact that the Government has described in great length your experience and background, I am asking do you not agree that we would characterize it as probably sloppy lab work to cut out a blood stain and not mark that it had once been there on the larger fabric?
MR. BLACKBURN: OBJECTION, Your Honor. That is argumentative.
THE COURT: I'll SUSTAIN it as to the form of the question. I will let you ask her whether or not that is accepted technique in the profession.
MR. SEGAL: Yes; certainly, Your Honor.
BY MR. SEGAL:
Q Would it be accepted technique in a properly run laboratory to mark on the larger fabric a place where you had taken out a blood stain?
A Yes.
Q And would it also be accepted technique in a properly run laboratory to mark where an unstained control sample had been cut out?
A No, sir. As I stated, sometimes I will take the blood stain and cut a little larger area so there will only be one hole there, and it might just be marked once, or something like that.
Q Aside from the idea that where there are both a blood stain and a sample to be cut out at the same time, if just a sample were cut out for control purposes, in a good laboratory would it not be the proper procedure to mark it, if that is what had happened?
A It is usually done. Sometimes it is overlooked.
Q Again, I think -- I have not made myself clear. I was not asking you about your procedure; I was asking for your opinion in your role as an expert for the Government whether in a good laboratory it would be marked. I didn't mean to ask you about yourself right now?
A Well, the only way I can answer it is sometimes it is forgotten to be marked. It is in the notes of the person running the examination that an unstained area was done.
Q All right, now, let me show you Government Exhibit G-120, and this is the blue bedsheet from the east bedroom. I want to point out to you a particular area which has been cut out.
I will display it to you and ask, Mrs. Glisson, if you would look at it and tell me whether on front or back it is marked as having been cut out by someone from the laboratory?
A I don't see any -- it looks like it has been cut out in the laboratory, but I don't see any markings on it.
Q Do you know who would have cut out a hole in this bedsheet without having marked it? Would it have been yourself, or one of the other serologists who worked on this piece of evidence?
A It was probably me, because I did that exhibit.
Q Yes, do you want to examine it further in that regard? May I hold that for you?
A As I recall, I examined this -- do you want me to tell you what --
Q (Interposing) Please, if you recall whether this is your cut?
A Yes, because I think I was the only one that worked on this exhibit, and I did blood stains and urine stains; and I was also doing acid phosphatase tests for similar stains.
Q All right, now in regard --
A (Interposing) Other than this; now, I didn't do all this marking up here. I didn't do this.
Q You are indicating the light blue marking here?
A This blue area. No, I didn't do that.
Q Let me go back again, if I can, to the original hole that I called to your attention, all right?
A All right.
Q Do you know whether there was a blood spot?
A I would have to look in my notes and then correlate all my numbers, and then figure it out from there.
Q Well, again, I am asking you about this, what appears to be about a 2-1/4" x 1" cut in this fabric, which there are no numbers for?
A May I examine it to see if I have got an unstained area marked?
Q Sure. Would it be helpful to do it on the table?
A I think so; or maybe just hold it out so I can see all my numbers. I would like to turn it over. I think there is writing on the other side, too. Now, this area I have here marked "blood negative."
Q You are indicating a large hole, roughly 4" by 4" on the sheet?
A Right; and I have here "blood negative."
Q That is a hole that has been marked with what identification number, if you can read that for us, please?
A I don't have it marked, unless it is on the other side. I just have "negative blood." I did not have to cut it out. I swabbed it with the benzidine test.
Q That is your initial there -- or that is your notation there?
A Yes; then I took some unstained areas here -- I don't know. I don't know whether I cut that or not. I know I did unstained areas on this, and I might have used that area; I just don't remember.
Q In examining this item, can you find any other hole of any significance which is not marked in some fashion with an identification, either by being circled and some comment written, or a number on it?
A No.
Q Thank you, Mrs. Glisson. Let me take this if I may. Thank you.
Now, did you work on the item which is marked G-103 in this case, and which is on the CID list, D-211, the top sheet in the east bedroom?
A Yes; I did.
Q And would you please examine this item -- this D-211 -- the sheet; and tell me whether you can show me where an unstained control sample was cut from this sheet? Would it help if we spread it over the model?
A Uh-huh.
Q I will assist on one side or the other, if you would like.
A This area -- I might have taken an unstained control, because it was a blood spot, and I tried to cut the whole thing -- see?
Q The one that is marked 15?
A This is what I do a lot of times. I take the blood stain plus an unstained area right next to it, and cut it all at one time.
Q All right.
A That could be one.
Q Let me just make sure the record reflects it. You have indicated the spot that is marked on the reverse side with the number 15?
A That is right.
Q Would that be the numbers you put there yourself?
A Yes, sir.
Q All right; that would be large enough to provide the unstained control?
A Yes, sir.
Q Now, you have also pointed to a spot that is marked 22?
A Uh-huh; I typed that spot, too.
Q Of course, that appears to be a smear; would it not be?
A Yes.
Q And the cut -- let me hold it so the jury perhaps can see that -- you have cut approximately 1" by 1/4" piece out, which is marked 22?
A That is right.
Q Were you cutting an unstained control here, or were you just cutting a piece of the smear to get a typing on that?
A It looks like it is sort of stained on this side, too. I probably might not have used that for an unstained control in conjunction with the others. I don't know.
Q Can you see whether there is any other indication of an unstained control anywhere on this sheet?
A In this area, it looks like I cut a larger piece than I would need for typing. You see, this is a pretty good size piece for typing. In typing, you only need three fibers.
Q All right; would you look --
A (Interposing) It looks like I might have cut a bigger piece right here.
Q Now, you are indicating a cut approximately a half inch by a half inch which is number 17, and I assume that that is a number that you recollect as being your own number; is that right?
A Yes; that is my writing.
Q And that would be a blood spot that you think was also cut out with a larger amount of fabric as an unstained control?
A It could be; yes. I do that a lot.
Q What is this down here?
A That was a large area, too. I probably cut that area ten which is what -- an inch and a half by an inch?
Q That sounds fair.
A Un-huh; because I had to take more than one. Here is 21, another place where I took a large area. Here is another area. I took a large area because I had to take, you know, from different areas of the sheet to do my unstained controls.
Q But, in each one of the areas you have now pointed out to us on this particular sheet, you are also able to show that there has been another letter placed on there by you.
A That's right, and that related to a blood stain plus an unstained control at the same time.
Q Yes, I see. All right, I have only two other items I want to impose upon you in the same regard, and that will probably be all you have to answer me about, Mrs. Glisson. I would like you to take a look at G-355 which the CID listed as D-123. It is the purple quilted bedspread from the south bedroom.
A I don't believe I did that exhibit, sir,
Q As far as you can tell, you did no work on this exhibit for dried blood typing?
A No; not according to my records.
Q I'm sorry. I could not hear you.
A Not according to my records.
Q Would it help to look?
A I am pretty sure I did not do that.
Q All right, let me just ask you about one other exhibit -- if you have done some work on it.
(Counsel confer.)
BY MR. SEGAL:
Q First of all, would you just check? Did you work on the item that should be marked with the CID Number D-208?
A Yes, sir.
Q You did, in fact, work on that?
A Yes; I did.
MR. MURTAGH: Your Honor, that exhibit is not in evidence. I think we can get it for Mr. Segal.
MR. SEGAL: Let me speak with counsel for a moment, please, Your Honor.
(Counsel confer.)
MR. SEGAL: Your Honor, may we see you for a second, please?
B E N C H C O N F E R E N C E
MR. SEGAL: It would take Mr. Murtagh two or three minutes to find the exhibit we are looking for, and I only have one question of the same nature to Mrs. Glisson. Then I am through. Perhaps this might be the appropriate time to give the jury the information about the jury view and then we can come back and finish that.
(Discussion off the record.)
(Bench conference terminated.)
THE COURT: Mr. Murtagh gone to find the exhibit?
MR. BLACKBURN: He and Mr. Murray went to the jail cell to find the exhibit.
(Pause.)
THE COURT: Did you find it?
MR. MURTAGH: Yes, sir.
MR. SEGAL: Yes, Your Honor, Mr. Murtagh was good enough to obtain it from the vault.
BY MR. SEGAL:
Q The item I would like to show you, Mrs. Glisson, has been marked now as Defendant Exhibit 38. I indicate to you it has previously been identified on the CID laboratory list as D-208. I would ask you to examine these items and tell us what they represent to you?
A This represents a pajama of -- that belonged to Kimberly.
Q Kimberly MacDonald, yes.
A Uh-huh (yes).
Q And that is an item that you did process for dried blood stain typing?
A I have my initials on this. Yes, I did.
Q Would you examine that, please, and show me where there are unstained control samples taken by you, and if you would like I will hold that if it could help?
A I believe I had -- see I had pajamas and panties all in one exhibit, if I remember correctly.
Q Yes, I was hoping we would have that, and I don't see the -- I'm sorry. I beg your pardon, there is a separate bag in here. Let me show you the balance of it, which looks like a child's underpants, and ask, with those two exhibits can you point out to me the area where you took the unstained control samples from it?
A I think this is my number 1 here, right here.
(Defendant Exhibit No. 38 was marked for identification.)
BY MR. SEGAL:
Q You are indicating on the pink panties? May I see? You have marked with a circle on the number one a large area. Are you suggesting that based upon looking at the size of the hole you think that is both a blood sample you were taking and an unstained control sample?
A It could be. I might have been looking for urine on the sample too. They asked for that.
Q At this juncture, I am specifically interested in the blood matter, and then tell us also about the urine if you want after that.
A These are my initials and I did this Exhibit. I probably took that as an area.
Q You say you probably took your own control stain from the area that is circled and marked number one. Did you do anything in terms of the other garment -- the child's pajama or nightgown as far as taking an unstained control sample from that?
A I have got this area up here, is bloodstained. I don't quite understand -- I must have done this at a later date because it has got "June 16th, '73."
Q Is that your handwriting?
A Yes, uh-huh. This is my tape.
Q Well, you did examine it, though, between --
A (Interposing) This doesn't look like me. I don't usually write my ones like this.
Q Well, can you not look at your own --
A (Interposing) I would have to look at some other notes to tell.
Q Can you look at your charts or your records there to see whether or not you processed for dried blood typing the Exhibit that is now marked Defendant Exhibit --
A (Interposing) Okay. I have got one right here, area two circled with my initials "JSG." I know I did that because I recognize my initials and this is a pretty good sized area from which I probably took an unstained area.
Q You are indicating, if I may, an irregularly shaped hole roughly three-quarters inch, by three-quarters inch. And you have got the number two next to your initials; is that right?
A That is right.
Q And I would gather -- it appears to be through a blood smear. Am I correct in describing that?
A Right. And it looks like there is some unstained areas around it.
Q And that would be your unstained control sample being cut out at the same time as the blood smear?
A That is right.
Q The last thing I want to ask you about, Ms. Glisson, when Craig Chamberlain was finishing his degree in blood work with you at the end of '69, and the beginning of '70, did you run an error factor analysis of his work? That is, what percentage of the time did he come up with correct answers in the blood typing tests where you knew in advance the blood type that you gave him to check?
A I gave him unknown samples, because I do that with all my trainees. I give them unknown samples and they identify them.
Q And did you run any error factor analysis of his work?
A No, sir. That doesn't happen. May I just talk about that?
Q Well, sure. I just want to know whether you ran it, and if there is a reason why you didn't do it, I will be glad to hear that. But you did not do any error factor analysis for him or Larry as to his work; is that right?
A No.
Q You want to tell us why?
A Well, mistakes aren't made, because there is a cross-checking yourself when we do this -- these examinations.
Q What is the cross-check on your own work?
A By the antibodies in the absorption elution. And if they don't coincide, I mean -- you know, they are in training and they are supposed to be taught how to do it. And they might not be quite as good at it right in the beginning. But that is why they are in training.
And if they would run absorption elution and did antibodies, and if they didn't coincide, they might know something was wrong. They might do it over again. But it is not like -- you don't get an A when it should be a B or an AB when it should be an O; it is not like that. You might get inconclusive results.
Q How about more difficult problems where you have an A, a B and an AB, don't you sometimes have problems in deciding when you have a stain that is AB whether it was made by a person with AB or if there is blood from both an A person and a B person comingled there?
A No, sir, not in fresh stains like these. Because if you had an A person, you would have anti B. And if you had a B person, you would have anti A. So, you know you have a mixture of an A and a B stain. But if you have just an AB person, you don't have any antibodies. So, it can't be a mixture.
Q Well, let me ask you this: is it in essence what you are saying is there is no problem to worry about errors in this kind of work with dried blood stain typing? There is no problem of errors to worry about?
A You might get inconclusives --
Q (Interposing) But as far as they are wrong --
A -- which is quite common. We are very conservative -- the lab is. You might have noticed when we say "indicate" A when I know it is A. But we say "indicate" it A on a fresh stain.
Q The only question was: are you telling us there is no errors to be found in dried blood stain typing done in the CID Laboratory in 1970?
MR. MURTAGH: OBJECTION, Your Honor. I think that question is argumentative and has been answered.
THE COURT: I will let her answer it one more time.
BY MR. SEGAL:
Q Yes, ma'am, answer.
A No, not that I realize, because actually the great part of this case is that if somebody did run a crust test, and I ran absorption elution, then we would pull our results together and they coincided.
Q Where that was done by two different people?
A That is right.
Q But when it wasn't done by two different people --
A (Interposing) They would pick up the error themselves, because they had to cross-check themselves by doing both the antibodies and antigens.
Q In other words, it is a foolproof system?
A Yes; it is.
MR. MURTAGH: OBJECTION, Your Honor.
THE WITNESS: Where antibodies and antigens are concerned.
MR. SEGAL: I have nothing further for this witness, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Any redirect?
MR. MURTAGH: Your Honor, if I might ask the Court's indulgence, Mrs. Glisson is scheduled to go back to Georgia for other cases.
THE COURT: We are going to get rid of her this afternoon, if we can; but now, I am not inviting you to spend the rest of the evening.
MR. MURTAGH: No, sir.
R E D I R E C T E X A M I N A T I O N 5:03 p.m.
MR. MURTAGH:
Q I believe you testified on cross-examination that Craig Chamberlain was in charge of this case. Let me ask you -- was Craig Chamberlain the evidence custodian in this case?
A Yes; he was.
Q Did he distribute evidence to various chemists?
A Yes; he did.
Q Did he tell you what tests to do?
A No; he didn't tell us what tests to do.
Q Mrs. Glisson, with regard -- could I ask you to take a look at your notes for the 5th of March, 1970, specifically with regard to the results for area number 211? I gather it is exhibit 211, and 19 -- may I ask you, does that correspond to the sheet from the pile of bedding on the master bedroom floor; and 19 correspond to the bottom sheet for the master bed?
A Yes, sir.
Q Have you got those notes?
A I have a chart of what I found.
Q Well, let me show you -- Mrs. Glisson, let me show you a Xerox copy and ask if you can identify that page?
A Yes, sir; this is my writing; yes.
Q Is it from this case?
A Yes, sir.
Q How can you tell it, ma'am?
A I have the lab case number, PCFP 8270, the 5th of March, and my initials.
Q Okay; and with regard to -- does it concern, among other exhibits, the sheet 211 and sheet 19?
A Yes, sir.
Q Would you tell the Court and jury, please, what appears at the bottom of that piece of paper?
A I have on the bottom "controls all okay," and above I have "unstained areas checked."
MR. MURTAGH: No further questions, Your Honor.
MR. SEGAL: I have nothing further, Your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. Members of the jury, that brings us to the close of this trial day, but I have some additional information now for you concerning the jury view of the premises at Fort Bragg, which is to be made tomorrow.
According to my recollection, all the jurors, with the exception of Mr. Richardson and Mr. Parker, live here in the Raleigh area -- that is, right in Raleigh or in Cary or Wendell, so that is 14 of you. Four of you live in Johnston and Harnett Counties.
That would be Mr. Cobb -- I believe you are from Clayton; Ms. Allen, from Four Oaks; Mr. Hardison -- he has a Spring Lake address, but he lives in Harnett County, which is close by; Mr. Embrey lives in Benson.
Now, for you four jurors, I am going to let Mr. Hardison, since he is closer to Fayetteville, I suppose, than maybe you are to Lillington, even much less Raleigh. There is no point in having you come to Raleigh tomorrow to go back down there.
For those of you who live in Johnston County, the three of you, I will give you the option of proceeding by your own transportation to Fayetteville. What we are going to do is muster the entire jury at the Federal Courthouse and courtroom in Fayetteville tomorrow morning, instead of in Raleigh -- or we can have the Marshal to pick you up at your respective towns of residence -- not your homes, because that probably would be a little hard to find.
But it occurred to me, if you wanted to go by Marshal's transportation, that I would have someone to pick up Mr. Cobb at the Post office in Clayton and Mrs. Allen at the Post Office in Four Oaks, and finally Mr. Embrey at the Post Office in Benson -- beginning with Mr. Cobb, of course -- say at 9:15.
Now, which would you rather do? Would you rather go to Fayetteville on your own?
JUROR EMBREY: Did you mean, Your Honor, if we got together and us three went on our own transportation down there?
THE COURT: That is entirely all right, if you prefer to do it that way; and of course, you would get your mileage the same as you would be coming to Raleigh.
JUROR EMBREY: Us three from Johnston County will arrange that.
THE COURT: I will tell you where to be, then, and what time to be there -- at 10:30 tomorrow morning at the Federal Courtroom in Fayetteville. The courtroom is on the third floor of the Post Office Federal Building, which is on Green Street as you come in from Raleigh. I don't recall, but it is right near the corner of the one that comes off 1-95.
JUROR HARDISON: Grove and Ramsey.
THE COURT: That is right; Grove and Ramsey. Anyway, if you three will be there at 10:30 tomorrow morning; and Mr. Hardison, if you can be there at 10:30? You won't have very far to go, and you can leave a little later.
Now, for the remaining 12 of you, I ask that you meet the Marshals, and you will be taken by private cars. There will be three cars -- four to the car -- leave the parking lot at the east and south of this building. I am under the impression that arrangements have been made for you to park back there. This is the parking lot adjacent to the building. That is where the Marshal's cars are parked.
So if you will be there tomorrow morning at 9:00 o'clock. It is a comfortable ride to Fayetteville in an hour and a half. They will go to the courtroom too. When you have all assembled at the courtroom at Fayetteville, you will be in charge of United States Magistrate Stuart Clarke.
I shall not be there -- in fact, will not be able to go tomorrow. Counsel have agreed -- I think it is necessary that I take a look, but I may go at some other time, without the jury being there.
But when you assemble there at 10:30, then transportation will be provided for everybody to go to Fort Bragg to this house. It is contemplated that you should arrive there in the area of 11:00 o'clock.
Now, an Order is being entered -- well, I will give you about three copies so that you can have one in each car. In regard to the jury view, the furniture in the living room is to be placed in a normal-type position. That is, the coffee table should be standing on all four legs parallel to the sofa and the sitting chairs arranged in a normal fashion.
Additionally, the members of the jury shall not speak to anyone from the time they debark from their vehicles at or near the MacDonald house until such time as they return to their vehicle and depart. The members of the jury shall not talk among themselves at any time during the jury view as described in paragraph (a) which I just read. The members of the jury shall not ask questions of the United States Magistrate, the United States Marshal, or any other persons connected with the jury view concerning the matters to be observed or have been observed by them during the view.
The members of the jury are instructed that the jury view is not evidence in the case, rather, it is only to aid them in their understanding of the evidence to be heard here in open Court. The members of the jury shall not take notes of their observations during or after the jury view, but the jurors may write questions concerning the premises to be directed to the Court and the Court will consider the same when it reconvenes on Monday morning, August 6th, 1979, and will shortly thereafter inform the jury whether their questions may be answered either by stipulation or by a witness or one or the other of the parties.
The United States Magistrate, the Marshal, and counsel for the parties, and all other persons who are authorized to be present at the jury view are not to speak to or answer any questions from members of the jury during the jury view. The Marshal is instructed to make arrangements to insure that no bystanders are permitted to get close enough to members of the jury so as to make any statements to them or as to be overheard by members of the jury.
Now, an Order has been entered separate from these instructions directed to the Marshal and committing to his exclusive jurisdiction security in the area adjacent to this alleged crime scene and security for that will be the sole and exclusive responsibility of the United States Marshal. It is contemplated that an area will be roped off at 25 yards on each side and the street will be blocked off by military police. I say that more for the benefit of any members of the audience who might decide to go to Fayetteville tomorrow that these instructions will be in effect. Of course, non-parties and jurors or whatever your interest will not be admitted to the house.
Do counsel have any additional instructions concerning this matter?
MR. SEGAL: No, Your Honor.
MR. BLACKBURN: No, sir.
THE COURT: Very well. Now, we expect, of course, that you won't have any difficulty -- that is, our three Johnson County jurors in arriving there timely. Should you encounter any difficulty, if you would contact the United States Marshal's Office here in Raleigh, then they can reach the rest of the caravan by radio, so I am told.
Now, members of the jury, as you will recall, the fairly good size majority of you were of the opinion that this jury view would be helpful to you and it was at least in partial reliance upon that representation of the members of the jury that it was determined to allow you to do this. I ask you, however, to remember particularly the standard instructions which are in effect at all times. Briefly, they are, you are not to discuss the case among yourselves or with others, don't let anybody talk about it anywhere around you, don't read, look at, or listen to anything about it from any source whatever when you are not in this Courtroom. Above all, keep open minds about the case. You have not heard it all yet. I again commend you for the attention which you have given to the witnesses and to counsel in this case, and we were today, and I may say this on behalf of counsel, most impressed with the detail of one question which was directed to the Court by the jury because of this signifying the acute attention to which you were paying to these witnesses and to these exhibits. Counsel for all parties and the Court are duly appreciative of your efforts in paying strict attention to the case.
As soon as you are through tomorrow, and it is contemplated that that will certainly not be later than 12:30 or 1:00 o'clock, then you will be returned -- those of you to Raleigh and the others may go home.
There will be no more Court tomorrow. The Court will reconvene here on Monday morning, August 6th, at 10:00 o'clock. Have a good weekend, a safe trip to Fayetteville and back home. We will reconvene here on Monday morning. Take a recess until tomorrow morning at 10:30 o'clock in the United States Courtroom at Fayetteville.
(The proceeding was adjourned at 5:18 p.m., to reconvene at 10:00 a.m. on Monday, August 6th, 1979.)
Webmaster note:
The original stenographer's misspelling of Connors was corrected to Conners in this transcript.