I, Mary M. Ritchie, being a Notary Public in and for the State of North Carolina, was appointed to take the testimony of the following witness, Janice S. Glisson, before the Grand Jury, Raleigh, North Carolina, commencing at 3:50 p.m. January 14, 1975.  All Grand Jurors present with the exception of Juror Samuel Cannady who was permanently excused from all subsequent Jury Duty by the Judge.

Whereupon, JANICE S. GLISSON, having been first sworn, was examined and testified as follows:

EXAMINATION BY MR. WOERHEIDE:
Q  What is your name, please?
A  Janice S. Glisson.
Q  Where do you live?
A  753 Oxford Road, Augusta, Georgia.
Q  Where are you employed?
A  The United States Criminal Investigation Laboratory at Ft. Gordon, Georgia.
Q  In what capacity are you employed there?
A  I'm a forensic chemist, and I work in the serology section.  I'm the superior of the serology section.
Q  And how long have you been so engaged -- so employed?
A  Since April of 1967, I've been in this position.  In 1953 to 1954, I worked in the Criminal Investigation Laboratory, too.
Q  In other words, you've been working there since 1953 or 1954; but you attained your present rank and responsibility --
A  No, sir.  I just worked for a short time, about nine months, from 1953 to 1954; and then I went back full-time in 1967.
Q  Oh, I see.  Now, do you remember the MacDonald case?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  And you didn't come up here at the time of the murders, did you?
A  No, I did not.
Q  Or come to Ft. Bragg?
A  No.
Q  You stayed down at Ft. Gordon?
A  That's right.
Q  But the team did come up here and collect various items of evidence.  Is that correct?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  And did these include particles of blood and articles with blood marks on them?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Was all this material taken back to Ft. Gordon?
A  Yes, it was.
Q  Did you work on the examination of the material?
A  Yes, sir.
Q  Did Mr. Chamberlain work with you?
A  Yes, he did.
Q  Was he one of the junior employees in the office?
A  Yes.
Q  But, on some of the physical evidence, did you make the entire examination?  On other items, he would make the entire examination?  On other items, you would work jointly with one another --
A  (Interposing)  That's right.
Q  Making different tests?  Ms. Glisson, we have on the board a bath mat, which has been marked in evidence today as Ivory Exhibit #2; and which, I think, was marked by the lab as Exhibit D-214 for purposes of their testing.  I see here that you have some photographs which are blow-ups of this.  And I think some of them show one side of it; and some of them show the other side of it.
A  That's correct.
Q  And I see there are some adhesive labels that have been superimposed on these photographs.   And the labels appear to represent various blood groupings.
A  That's right.
Q  Is that correct?
A  That's right.
Q  All right, tell us about your examination of the bath mat and what type blood is on the bath mat?
A  This bath mat had two different types of blood.  I had different areas marked.  They go through the alphabet through O.  Three areas -- This is one area, here -- is type AB.  This is side one -- E and D.  Area D is AB.
Q  That's type AB?
A  Right.
Q  That would be Kimberly's blood.
A  That's right.  And all the other areas are type A.
Q  That would be Colette's blood.
A  They are circled.  On the other side of the bath mat, area K is type AB; and all the other areas are type A.  Fifteen areas were examined.
Q  Thank you very much.  Now I have -- how many of these photographs do we have of this bath mat, now?
A  We have side one and side two of the complete bath mat, and then portions -- two more photographs of portions of the bath mat.  And, they are labeled.
Q  These portions show where the AB and the A are.  Okay, fine, great.
A  Only one spot is AB and that's just a portion.  
Q  All right, this is AB.
A  Right.
Q  And this is A right?
A  Yes, but not all the AB's are on that one.
Q  I beg your pardon?
A  All the AB spots are not on those two.  (Indicating the photos of portion of the bath mat.)

MR. WOERHEIDE:  Let's mark these for exhibit, as Glisson Exhibit #1, #2, #3, and #4 of this date.

(GLISSON EXHIBIT #1, #2, #3, and #4 - JANUARY 14, 1975 - MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION)

Q  (By Mr. Woerheide)  Now, Ms. Glisson, I have here what has been marked today as Ivory Exhibit #4, and it bears the Ft. Gordon Lab Exhibit #D-211.

MR. WOERHEIDE:  For the record, I wish to state that this is a sheet.  It was found in the master bedroom, together with a bedspread, to the left of the exit down into the hall on the floor.

Q  (By Mr. Woerheide)  Now, tell us what examination you made of that sheet when it first came to you; and what conclusions you arrived at.  And tell us if, at a later date, you made another examination; and if so, what conclusions you arrived.
A  I examined this bed sheet and found human blood and typed twenty-eight different areas -- blood typed twenty-eight different areas.  In two areas, I found type AB; and the other twenty-six areas, I found type A.  I have marked on the photographs.   Side one -- AB, and AB, and anything else that was checked was A.  And this is the other side of the sheet.  (Indicating second photograph.)
Q  So, here's the reverse side of those two AB specimens.  Is that it?
A  That's right.
Q  And everything else is type A.
A  (No response)

MR. WOERHEIDE:  I would like these marked as Glisson Exhibits #5 and #6, please.

(GLISSON EXHIBITS #5 AND #6 - JANUARY 14, 1975 MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION)

Q  (By Mr. Woerheide)  Ms. Glisson, this is Ivory Exhibit #1 of this date, and it is your D-219.
     I don't suppose we need to take it out of the envelope; but that is the pajama top -- a man's pajama top, blue in color.  It does have blood on it?
A  Yes, it did.  I have a photograph, small.  This is ripped, but  for the photograph, we pieced together and I found a lot of blood.  I checked twenty-seven different areas for blood types.  One area was type AB, which is in the front of the left sleeve in this area, in the mid portion of the areas of the sleeve; and one spot --
Q  Let me ask you.  Is that the torn sleeve -- the left sleeve?
A  Yes.  This is all torn.  Shall we take this out?
Q  No, that's all right.  They'll see it soon enough.
A  In the bottom of the left front, there was a small spot of B blood.  All the rest of the blood is type A.  This is the back of the shirt -- the pajama top.
Q  I take it, the examination you made and the tests that you made were solely for the purpose of ascertaining the blood types on this.
A  At a later date, the exhibit was resubmitted to check for urine stains; and I found no urine stains.

(GLISSON EXHIBIT #7 AND #8 - JANUARY 14, 1975 MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION)

Q  (By Mr. Woerheide)  Now, in conjunction with the sheet that you testified about, there was also recovered a bedspread at the same location in the room.  I won't unwrap this now, but for identification purposes, it's Ivory Exhibit #5 of this date; and it says -- has a lab #D-229.  Can you tell us about this?  Do you have a photograph of it?
A  No.
Q  If you don't -- All right, but just tell us what you can about it.
A  I checked eight areas, and they were all type A, human blood type A.
Q  Here is the pajama top -- or the pajamas, tops and bottoms that were found on the body of Colette MacDonald.  It's Ivory Exhibit #3 of this date, and it has the lab #D-209.  Can you tell us about this?
A  All right.  I checked fifteen areas on the pajama top and bottom, combined; and I found them to be human blood of type A.
Q  Here is Ivory Exhibit #7 of this date, and it has the Ft. Gordon lab #64-N-B.  For the record, this is the bottom sheet on the bed of Kristen MacDonald in the north bedroom.  Now, can you tell us what examination you made and what you found?
A  All right, I checked for -- found there was human blood in areas.  And areas two was type A, and area one and three, four, five and six was type O.  I also checked for urine stains, and there was a urine stain on the sheet.  And I tried to blood type the urine stain, and I didn't get any blood factors.
Q  All right, here we have Ivory Exhibit #6, which is the top bed sheet on the same bed.  It has a lab #60-N-B.  Can you tell us whether you tested that; and if so, what tests -- what results were found?
A  On areas one and seven -- These areas are all circled and marked with numbers on the exhibit.  In areas one and seven, I found a mixed stain of blood, type A and O.  Areas two, three, four, five and six, I found type A.  Area nine, I found type O.  In several other areas I did, and I had an indication for type A, which is probably type A.  And I also -- This is the top sheet.  That takes care of that.
Q  All right, now, here is Ivory Exhibit #8 of this date and has the Ft. Gordon lab #56-N-B.
     And it's a green bedspread that was found on top of Kristen's bed.  Can you tell us whether you examined that?
A  Yes.  There was human blood on this, and I found two different blood types.   In one area, I found the type AB.  In areas one through four and six and seven, I found type A.
Q  Ms. Glisson, on the bed in the east bedroom, the so-called master bedroom, there was a sheet on the bed.  Did you make an examination with respect to that sheet?
A  Yes, I did.  I examined that, and I found human blood.  And I did nine areas; and they were all type A.  I also examine for urine stains, and I found a large urine stain on the bed.  I found the blood factor A, which is an indication for type A or type AB, with non-detectable amounts of the blood of the factor B.
Q  In the last statement you made, are you referring to a test that you made of the urine?
A  Of the urine, not the blood.  This was -- This particular spot I took did not have any blood in it.  It was just urine.
Q  Your test indicated that the urine was originated -- let's say, was secreted by a person with one of two possible blood types.  Is that correct?
A  That's right.
Q  It had to be either a person with type A or a person with type AB; and at the time you made the test, the B factor had deteriorated, so it showed up as A.  Is that correct?
A  That's correct.
Q  According to the test that you made, could that urine have been secreted or excreted by a person with the blood type O?
A  No.
Q  Now, we don't have it here; but there was a sheet under the body of Kimberly MacDonald.
     Did you make an examination of that sheet?
A  Yes, I did.  I found a lot of blood and that was all type AB.  I also found some urine stains; and the urine stains, I got the blood factor A and B.  The first time I got the blood factor A.  I repeated the test; and I got an A and I got a slight amount of the blood factor B, which indicates AB -- blood type AB on the urine.
Q  Do you have a picture of that sheet by any chance?
A  Yes.
Q  Now, do you also have a photograph that was made the morning of the murder?
A  This is probably the one.

MR. WOERHEIDE:  Let's mark these as Glisson Exhibits.

(GLISSON EXHIBIT #9 AND #10 - JANUARY 14, 1975 - MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION)

Q  (By Mr. Woerheide)  Referring you to Glisson Exhibit #9, did you find two urine stains on that sheet?
A  Yes, I did.
Q  Was one of them right under the outline of the body, but another one further towards the headboard and further towards the hall wall?
A  Yes.
Q  And this photograph, taken the morning of February 17, does it indicate that the urine stain under the body was fresh urine stain?
A  Yes.
Q  And the other one was an old urine stain?
A  Yes.
Q  So, I take it you found urine stains on each of the sheets of the beds.   The urine stain in Kristen's bedroom was consistent with her type of blood.  Is that correct?
A  No.  I didn't find any blood types on her bed sheet.
Q  On that -- On the one there?
A  (Nods affirmatively)
Q  So you weren't able to type the urine stain.  Is that right?
A  That's right.
Q  But, on the bed in Kimberly's bedroom, you were able to type it as AB; and on the bed in the master bedroom, it was either A or AB with the B factor deteriorated.
A  That's right.

JUROR:  How about the stain in the master bedroom -- the sheet in there.  Was there an older stain or fresher stain?  You were saying the one in Kimberly's room was fresh -- the urine stain.

A  Kimberly's, the one right under her body, was the fresh stain.  There was another one that looked like it was dried.

Q  (By Mr. Woerheide)  How about the urine stain that was in the master bedroom?
A  I don't know whether it was fresh or not.  We don't have a photograph right here to show the wetness of it.  We have a photograph of the Kimberly one.

MR. WOERHEIDE:  Here is the photograph of Kim's bed, and that was still fresh.  Now, there is other urine, an old urine stain, up here.  And the testimony was -- by the agents -- was that there was a good-sized urine stain on the sheet of the master bedroom on the part -- on the side away from where Colette slept.  She slept on the right side of the bed, looking -- Well, if this is the bed and this is the head of the bed and that's the foot of the bed, she slept on this side; and the urine was here.
     And unfortunately, we don't have a picture that shows it up distinctly; but the testimony was that it appeared to be a fresh urine stain.  And this is what she has been testifying to, that that had -- could not have come from Kristen.  It had to come from either Colette, herself, or Kimberly.
Q  (By Mr. Woerheide)  Is that correct?
A  That's correct.  Now, these stains were dried when I got them, so I can't tell if it had been wet; but the investigators, the ones that took the exhibits from the bed scene, say that was a wet stain.

JUROR:  You cannot determine how long the stain has been there by your examination?

A  I can't.  The investigators who took the evidence would be able to tell whether it was wet.  But, when I got it, it would have dried.  But, when I say Kimberly's stain -- this one -- I'm saying, that from the picture.  From the photograph, I can tell that's a wet stain -- from the photograph.

JUROR:  You have no way of knowing how long the urine has been in the fibers of the sheet.
Right?

A  No, not when I received it.  It was dry.

MR. WOERHEIDE:  Mr. Foreman, it's almost 4:15.  I don't know whether you have any questions of Ms. Glisson at this time.  I'm not going to ask her to be excused at this time, but I do think this is a good breaking point.  However, I suggest if you have some questions you'd like to ask her as to what she's testified to up to this point, we do so.  Tomorrow, I may -- I'm not sure.  I have some additional questions but tomorrow we'll proceed with Mr. Stombaugh.

FOREMAN:  Any questions?  I don't have any.

JUROR:  On this bath mat, were those stains positively identified?

A  Yes.

JUROR:  They were?

A  Yes.  When I say it is type A, it has to be type A.  When I say its type AB, it has to be type AB.  Lots of times in reports, we might say "indicated" and that means we found one factor; but it's likely it will be that particular blood type.

FOREMAN:  Okay, now, we'll be back tomorrow morning at 9:30.